Maillemaker Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I'm becoming more confident at welding, and I thought I would try my hand at patternwelds. I have access to some band saw blades, and was wondering if they would be appropriate to use They are Roetgen LLC bi-alfa colbalt blades. Now, the site says that the cutting teeth have a high cobalt content, but I plan on grinding/seperating the teeth so all i have is the backing. The site says this; "With a steel backing strip containing approximately 4% chromium..." Now, 2 questions: First, what manner of creature am I dealing with that has 4% chromium? I've looked in the machinist's handbook and there is nothing over 0.80% chromium in any of the alloys they have listed. Second, is heating this steel up to welding temp going to be a health hazard aside from the obvious really-hot-glowing-metal issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Not sure wot you are going to do with your pieces when all welded up and patterned. If you have blades in mind you may wish to think about wot is in that steel that will add to the quality of your blade. For instance if the blade has a high enough carbon content so that when you add wot ever the other steel you weld with it. Will the end product have the right amount of carbon to make a good blade. The backing on bimetallic band saw blades is simply there to support the teeth as they travel and cut. It does not have to have edge holding abilities that I look for. As for steel containing lots of Chrome I looked up D-2, it has between 11 and 13% Steels that contain more chrome when welded in a billet will be the ones that show up shinier after etching. When combined with steel with minimal chrome the two will give a nice contrast. There are a lot of folks now doing pattern welded items for things other than edged things. For my knives my favorite is 1084 steel which will show up dark after etcch and 15n20 which will show bright , it has II think about 2% chrome. The latter is almost the same as L-6 and each of them have been used for the big band saws that are used to slice trees into lumber. The teeth are of the parent steel and not added on. They cut, and are resharpened as needed. Both of these steels have similiar heat treat methods, That is a must for me when choosing metals for a welded billet to make a knife. When welding any of these I use appropirate safety procedures, For me that is outdoors and upwind or with an added breeze when needed. When you weld steels with more chrome you may find a need for a more aggresive flux. Those kinds of fluxes can certainly be a hazard to your health and you should researech the particular flux and take the correct safety measures. If yoiu want you can learn more about steels and wot they consist of , starting with the knife stickies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Take a piece and heat till over non-magnetic and quench in water and then, wearing safety equipment, try to break it: (place in vise and hit with hammer or bridge the step on your anvil and try to hit it). If it breaks easily then it is an alloy you can use for knifemaking. You may want to partner it with another medium to high carbon steel---do the same test with various sources of pallet banding material and select one that "passes" or cut strips from *old* trashed wood handsaws, etc. The higher the chromium the harder it will be to weld especially to itself. I currently weld up bandsaw blade and pallet strapping using a flux of 2 parts 20 mule team borax to 1 part boric acid (purchased cheaply as Roach-Pruf) and make sure the outer layers are pallet strapping! This is not as elegant as using all new *known* metal; but it's a cheap way to experiment and learning how to weld 25 layers that thin the *first* weld is good experience! (I like to stack them so that when they are welded the stack is about square in cross section) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick maxen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 If you want to try pattern welding then its best to use steels that you know what they are. You could spend your life welding up all manner of steels and have no luck at all unless you get lucky. 15N20 is the most common steel married to a plain carbon steel like 1084 as Rich suggested. 15N20 is the bright steel as it has 2% nickel. Most peolpe will associate 15N20 as bandsaw blade steel, which it is but don't think that every bandsaw you find will be 15N20 as it won't be. Mick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeman Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm curious where folks are sourcing their 15N20. My local metal distributor has no such animal on the books, is there a common supplier/source for this material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Most knife making suppiers have it.I use K and G in AZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Specifically addressing the health issues, high chrome content steels release hexavalent chromium atoms when at welding temps, and some of the aggressive fluxes for stainless release fluorine gas. Good ventilation is a must, and a welding fume rated respirator would not be out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm curious where folks are sourcing their 15N20. My local metal distributor has no such animal on the books, is there a common supplier/source for this material?http://www.njsteelbaron.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm curious where folks are sourcing their 15N20. My local metal distributor has no such animal on the books, is there a common supplier/source for this material? Admiral Steel in Chicago carries it in sheet form, and you can also go manufacturer direct with uddenholm... The have several US plants, fortunately for me one of them is in Cleveland, so I can just jet over there and pick up what I want. Uddenholm provides it particularly for bandsaw blade manufacturers, so they tend to stock it in all sorts of convenient strip forms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 give it a try what is the worst thing you spend time at the forge and welding and it turns into junk and you through into the scrap pile. And you get the opportunity to see how different metals work and if they will work for you I have heard of it working Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Remember too folks that pattern welding is NOT just for blades; a lot of ornamental items are made with it where the carbon content is not an issue and lower carbon might actually be a bonus! I recall a pattern welded pure nickle and wrought iron pastry tool shown in the original printing of "Decorative and Sculptural Ironwork: Tools, Techniques, Inspiration" Donna Z. Meilach And I have a slowly working project of doing a pattern welded spangen helm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Admiral Steel in Chicago carries it in sheet form, and you can also go manufacturer direct with uddenholm... The have several US plants, fortunately for me one of them is in Cleveland, so I can just jet over there and pick up what I want. Uddenholm provides it particularly for bandsaw blade manufacturers, so they tend to stock it in all sorts of convenient strip forms. Be careful ordering from Admiral. I gave up and wont order from them unless I cant find it anywhere else.. Because my last 2 orders from them they did not send what I asked for, but substituted, and did NOT tell me, I found out later Finding out during HT is a bit too late to find they didnt send what I paid for. In one example I found they never have carried L-6 the web site did offer it for sale, but when orders were placed they sent 8670 in its place. (they have since stopped this L-6 bait and switch) Another order I made for 1095 they sent me 1075, stating they were out of 1095 in that size, at least they told me after I got the invoice about that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeman Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Remember too folks that pattern welding is NOT just for blades; a lot of ornamental items are made with it where the carbon content is not an issue and lower carbon might actually be a bonus! I recall a pattern welded pure nickle and wrought iron pastry tool shown in the original printing of "Decorative and Sculptural Ironwork: Tools, Techniques, Inspiration" Donna Z. Meilach And I have a slowly working project of doing a pattern welded spangen helm. Wow! Having done some armoring in the past I have to say that is an incredibly ambitious project. I can't wait to see photos of the finished results! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I hope you're young! I was moving along on it till I moved away from the good sized powerhammer. It's slowed way down though the building of a big billet propane welding forge is in the plans for this winter. It supposedly was part of a 3 helm project: First---spangen helm where all the pieces are forged, no stock metal anywhere save for rivets: Done (and I forge welded all the bands as well.) Second a pattern welded spangen helm---a couple of the billets are done and drawn out ready to be twisted and re-welded to provide a chevron pattern for the bands. Third---a spangen helm made from all real wrought iron---including the rivets. Sachse's book shows some *armour* made from damascus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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