Is this 19th Century Hand Forged Skewer Rack authentic?

[jerryd]

Hello,

I'm more of a collector than a blacksmith, and I was wondering if you guys can help me decide on the authenticity of this item as well as help answer a few other questions. It is stated as 19th century, but I want to be sure before I purchase it. One of the trim pieces does not seem to be original and is stated as such in the auction--would you guys have any idea when that piece could have been added based on the way it looks? How many man hours would this entire piece along with the skewers take? Any help is appreciated.

Here is the link to the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/19th-C-Spanish-Ironwork-HandForged-Utensil-Rack-2-Forks-/200626986297

[Thomas Dean]

I would say that it is. How long it would take...no idea. There are a ton of forge welds on this thing. I like the rack but the skewers are too much fo me. MPO. If you could get it for a tad over the current bid I think you would be doing real good.

[Junksmith]

Interesting question. The photos are good but it's still pretty difficult to tell much without seeing it in person. I hope some of the more experienced smiths will chime in with regard to time period. It certainly looks old, but "aging" metal isn't that hard to do. I will say this:
1. It's definitely handmade. There are enough minor inconsistencies (not a bad thing) to support that.
2. It appears to be wrought iron as opposed to more modern steel so that adds weight to its potential age.
3. One or two of the welds look as though they may have been repaired by more modern equipment then hammered over. I'm thinking the ones on the 3-pronged fork that seem to overlap the surfaces where the scrolls join, but that may just be what we call a "cold shut" where a piece of metal gets folded over without actually merging with the metal underneath.
4. Any way you slice it, it's a very ornate piece and would have involved many hours in its construction. In short, I can't guarantee a date, but it's an amazing piece either way.
If you're collecting, it's a steal at the current bid.

[arftist]

It also could have been made in 1975 using old iron, coal, tools and methods and there would be no way to prove otherwise.

[ThomasPowers]

Bur even if it was made yesterday the amount of work in it makes it a steal at double that price!

I was at first dubious until I saw the closeups and then it was *wow*! I believe it's an old piece and a forge welding of small section pieces tour de force!

I saw several of the lapped welds and wondered if they were drop the tong welds where both ends had previously been welded with the smaller curls and then welded together.

Frank Turley is probably the person to weigh in on this, (co-author of "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork: the Spanish Blacksmithing Tradition from Texas to California" and teaches at his top rated smithing school for longer than a lot of folks have been around!)

[David Einhorn]

Frank Turley is the person who wrote a book on Spanish iron, and is the person who I would ask.

What we would really need are closeup photographs of the back of the piece in order to rule-out the Arts and Crafts Movement period (circa 1870 to 1920) and other periods of time. Without those photographs we can look at the forging marks, style of work, and forge welding. Mr. Turley in his book places a big emphasis on the quality of the work due to the apprentice system. Closeups such as the one below show an unevenness of work that I would expect from copies from the Arts and Crafts Movement period but not from original Spanish-influenced work of earlier 19th century. I could be wrong, but my vote is late-19th century or early 20th century; I lean towards the Arts and Crafts Movement period until provided with more information and/or photographs of the back of the piece.

That said, it would cost more than the asked for price to reproduce that piece, so it is still a reasonable price.

[Ten Hammers]

From what I see it is indeed a lot of work but I will agree it absolutely could have been made this year by skilled smiths. Parts of it may absolutely be steel in my opinion. Wrought iron work of course sold at Wal Mart these days. Any claim of wrought iron would need to be documented in person. Yes, Frank is the man to ask. The color of the rusting is suspicious to me. Call me skeptical. 7th picture down from the top. Right side outboard scroll. Top of scroll may or may not have an electric weld broken away from upper cross bar ( nice jigsaw look). Of course there would be those that say it is early 20th century and that is an oxy-fuel weld. Picture 12 from the top shows backside but hard to magnify. Again, very nice work and a ton of forge welds and rivets. Ask Frank.

[arftist]

The rivets are suspiciously poorly done. Perhaps from a later less skilled repair? I like the 1/4 twists.

[Frank Turley]

This could date to the 19th century, but it could also date to 1950 or so. These were commonly made items and designed primarily as wall hangers, not wonderfully functional (note the fork tines). The basal hooks are functional for hanging various utensils. I have heard the style called Churrigueresque, which would be an outgrowth of a Spanish architectural style. The piece requires multitudinous forge welds.

In Hawley's book, "The Blacksmith and his Art," he describes visiting a Spanish smith probably around the 1940's or 1950's and watching the man do this kind of work. The man used a side blast forge with a round pipe conduit as a tuyere. When the tuyere end burned, the smith simply made a tiny adjustment and pushed the pipe through the side (firewall) a little farther. Hawley says that this is all the work that the smith did, day after day. This was his product.

The riveted cupped washer doesn't match so well the floral riveted area below it, but it is difficult to say whether it really is a replacement. In any event, it is a nice old piece, and the scrolled backdrop to the utensils is probably more elaborate than most I've seen.

Frank Turley
co-author with Marc Simmons, "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork"

[jerryd]

Wow! Thank you very much for the help, guys. I really appreciate all your input.

David Einhorn: You mention that you would need photographs of the back of the work to see the forging marks. They are visible from the 12th photo all the way through to the pictures of the forks/skewers. Do the forging marks help date the item?

Ten Hammers: Which parts appear to be steel on the work?

Frank Turley: Thank you for your input. Is it your belief that the riveted cupped washer really may be an original piece? It certainly makes the entire ironwork look “off” and hasn’t aged as evenly as everything else.

If that round washer piece is in fact original, it makes me question whether the ironwork is really 19th century and not an Art Deco piece as some of you said, though I’d like to believe the former, because it really does look stunning.

Frankly, the comments from some of you that this piece could have been made yesterday concern me, but on the other hand, the main rack seems to be layered in dust that looks yellowish and old and that partly assuages my fears, because who would go through the trouble of adding that to make it look more authentic?

I’ll have to give this some thought prior to placing a bid, though I'm leaning towards bidding on the item. Thanks again for all your help, folks!

[ThomasPowers]

A lot of people will age fake items for sale these days! The number of faked "Japanese" swords from WWII coming from China these days is enormous!

This item does not look deco to me---too busy. Gothic revival from the 20s might be a possibility but I will rubber stamp anything Frank says!

[David Einhorn]

You mention that you would need photographs of the back of the work to see the forging marks. They are visible from the 12th photo all the way through to the pictures of the forks/skewers. Do the forging marks help date the item?

Items made during the Arts and Crafts Movement period (circa 1870 to 1920) that I have had the opportunity to examine tend to show a lot more shortcuts on the back side than the front side.

Forging marks on portions of the front side seem a bit cruder and inconsistent than I would expect from a earlier 19th century period piece. I would not be looking necessarily for just forging marks on the back side but for other shortcuts like jagged-edged holes where holes were punched, and other indications shortcuts in workmanship that would not be expected from other time periods.

But like the others, I would bow to whatever Frank Turley says about the piece because for that area of the country he is the expert.

[tomhw]

Hello,

I'm more of a collector than a blacksmith, and I was wondering if you guys can help me decide on the authenticity of this item as well as help answer a few other questions. It is stated as 19th century, but I want to be sure before I purchase it. One of the trim pieces does not seem to be original and is stated as such in the auction--would you guys have any idea when that piece could have been added based on the way it looks? How many man hours would this entire piece along with the skewers take? Any help is appreciated.

Here is the link to the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/19th-C-Spanish-Ironwork-HandForged-Utensil-Rack-2-Forks-/200626986297

I agree with all the above responses. I bought Frank's book shortly after it first came out. It was a great help in analyzing and dating some iron artifacts from colonial Los Adais and Natchitoches, Louisiana.

As a collector you may find this book useful:
"Decorative Antique Ironwork" by Henry Rene' D'Allemagne, Dover Publications (1968).
It is mostly illustrations of French work but there are some Spanish too. Almost all objects featured were made for high end purchasers, rather than what might be called "folk art" such as the set you are interested in. See Nos. 288, 338, 339, and 389.