Justin Carnecchia Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Hi guys, I am planning on buying a power hammer sometime within the next year. I have all but decided on the Iron Kiss either in the 100# or the 75#. The other hammer I am giving consideration to is the Say-mak 110#. I am a bladesmith so I know the 75# will be more than enough for most of my uses. I do however need to be able to forge sword sized billets of damacus to do Japanese style swords and would like to be able to process bloomery iron for the same purpose. Is the 75# big enough to handle this type of work in a timely fashion or would I need the 100#. That being where I want to be now what the future may bring who knows? I will likely only ever have one chance to buy a power hammer, should I get the 100# planning ahead for production damascus work? Thanks for any advice you can give, -Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 If you can afford the bigger hammer you should. 3 years ago I bought a say-mak hammer I opted to get the larger of the two being sold by Tom Clark at the time. I have never regretted the decision. I started out with a 50 lb star hammer later upgraded to a 75lb Fairbanks hammer. We then bought the 135 say-mak If I could have gotten an even larger model at the time I would have. I hope to one day get a hammer with a 200 lb ram thats on my long term acquisition list. When you are shopping for a hammer you should be asking your self not what is the smallest I can get away with, but what is the biggest I can afford, have the space and power to run it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Go with the say-mak 110lb you will love the hammer and never regret it. Ive used a hand full of hammers from little giant, murry, trip air, iron kiss, tire hammer, say-mak, sahinler. None of the hammers hit near as hard or as smoothly as the say-mak and the sahinler. Both are self contained air hammers and I believe they are the cream of the crop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pike3e Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Another idea is to consider the combo of a hammer and a press. I have a 55 lb striker hammer and a press and have worked W2 tool steel that was 2 5/8 inch by 11 inches into barstock that was .25 by 1.5. I could be wrong but I think that could be pretty difficult on even a 100 lb hammer. Although Ric Furrer did a video of how he did it on a 300 lb hammer and that was alot faster than I could work it with my equipment. As to damascus making, I use the press to set the weld and to do alot of the drawing out process and dont move to the hammer until the stock is about .75 to 1 inch thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I've owned 2 Sayha/Saymak's. The first was a Sayha 50kg (2002 and the current is a Saymak 60kg (2008), both purchased from Tom Clark. The Sayha 50kg I used daily (hard) for 6 yrs. No complaints and excellent service from both hammers. The current rep for the Saymak hammers is Nathan Neale whose ph # is 503-440-1073. My understanding is that the Turkish company representing Saymak is not easy to deal with despite their excellent product. Tom Clark had invested a sizable amount of money in the company and owned part of it when Sayha became Saymak. I don't know what the business arrangement is now or how long it takes to get a hammer. If you want a Saymak, call Nathan. I highly recommend the Saymak. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I suggest you go try out some of the hammers you are considering.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 Thanks for the advice guys, I am suprised to get so many recomendations for the Say-mak when it was largely this forum that swayed me over to the Iron Kiss. I have a couple of concerns with the Say-mak among others that it has been very hard to get any information on them. The other main issue is the 6-1 anvil ratio, I have read they have no problem moving metal but how are they with control? Do they have the control the Iron Kiss has? Also the seperate air compressor that I first saw as a negative I am seeing as a possible plus since I can use it for other things, as well as move it away from where I forge to reduce background noise. You guys all have self contained and seem very happy so maybe I will give it more thought. I have thought about a press as the price difference between the 100# and 75# would just about cover it, but I think I will have an easier time getting the go ahead on one really big purchase than two not quite so big purchases. That is why I want to know if the 75# will do it or of I need to go with the 100#. I know smiths doing the type of work I want to be able to do with Little Giant 100# so I know the Iron Kiss 100#s should do it. That being said unless someone who has one tells me a 75# will be more than adequate I will go with the 100# just following the old advice pick the size you think you need and go one bigger. Thanks again for the advice guys, -Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I suggest you go try out some of the hammers you are considering.... Sage advice... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Thanks for the advice guys, I am suprised to get so many recomendations for the Say-mak when it was largely this forum that swayed me over to the Iron Kiss. I have a couple of concerns with the Say-mak among others that it has been very hard to get any information on them. The other main issue is the 6-1 anvil ratio, I have read they have no problem moving metal but how are they with control? Do they have the control the Iron Kiss has? Also the seperate air compressor that I first saw as a negative I am seeing as a possible plus since I can use it for other things, as well as move it away from where I forge to reduce background noise. You guys all have self contained and seem very happy so maybe I will give it more thought. I have thought about a press as the price difference between the 100# and 75# would just about cover it, but I think I will have an easier time getting the go ahead on one really big purchase than two not quite so big purchases. That is why I want to know if the 75# will do it or of I need to go with the 100#. I know smiths doing the type of work I want to be able to do with Little Giant 100# so I know the Iron Kiss 100#s should do it. That being said unless someone who has one tells me a 75# will be more than adequate I will go with the 100# just following the old advice pick the size you think you need and go one bigger. Thanks again for the advice guys, -Justin Nothing wrong with a non self contained hammer...you can build your own. As for the air compressor, it's an integral part of your of shop and should be viewed as such when building a business. As to the hammer, bigger is better...if it has control on the lower end. Any hammer can beat steel. Control is the issue, especially at the lower end when feathering out the blow. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 i agree with most of what has been said.... I have a 135lb saymak and bought Johns (gearheartironworks)110lb saymak when he upgraded to the 135 (my dad now has Johns 110'er) I think a IronKiss would be a great hammer, and I think the Saymak is fantastic... Both will do a fine job.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Well the abused say-mak I have used had way more control than the iron kiss I have used. Then again the iron kiss I was using was falling apart at the seams. Every nut and bot was rattling loose, there must have been 100 or more bolts in the hammer frame, seemed pretty silly to me. And the air system lagged and sometimes would over strike. Seemed vary badly built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 This conversation is beginning to feel very one sided Thanks for all the advice guys. It will be a while before I have the money for this so I have plenty of time to think it over. I would love to try some hammers if I can find some to try within a couple hours of Sandpoint Id. So far no luck with that...If anyone in Spokane or Missoula has a hammer I could try I would be most thankful. Has anyone here dealt with Nathan Neale? How does he stand behind his product? I would love to hear from someone with an Iron Kiss 75# or 100#. Thanks again guys, as forums like this may end up being the driving factor in my ultimate decision I appreciate any information I can get. -Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H. Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Clifton Ralph put it like this. You can feed two off a table for 20 but you can't feed 20 from a table set for 2. Get the biggest hammer you can! Dave Huffman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveh Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Have you talked to James Johnson about the Anyang hammers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Nathan is a stand up guy.... Your welcome to come run my SPH-60 SayMak, Im just south of Seattle, about a 6 hour drive from Sandpoint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I am a big SayMak fan but I think the Iron Kiss is a fantastic hammer as well... When Grant bought his 75lb hammer he had it shipped to my shop and I played with it for a week or so... It had great control, hit harder than any small utility hammer I had ever run and I would buy one in a heart beat if it suited my needs... I think my 135lb SayMak is a better general forging hammer for what I do but If I was running a small home shop I would most likely opt for a 100lb Iron Kiss... As far as MLMartins comments go any machine can be run into the ground... If its not maintained it matters little how "good" it was to begin with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I can't help as I never played with an IronKiss but I totally felt in love (and it's worth everyday) with John's octagons reading his daily log and all the comments every one who played with them fed back. If only there was not that #$§! ocean between us Not an expert but Anyang (the self-contained way) or IronKiss (the utility way) seems to be the best pound/$ while exhibiting great control... Plus they are both plug'n'play and the kindness, knowledge ability to troubleshoot issues of the guys behind them (John and James) are also part of the deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I'm pretty pleased with the Iron Kiss 75, It hits as hard as many hammers of greater size and has very fine control. I was not real pleased with the design of the dovetails, way too much unsupported overhang. Originally the overhang was at the front, but I turned everything around and oriented the dies in-line with the hammer. An overhang can be OK, but it must match the die-holder perfectly. You can see the final modification I did here>>>>>>>>>>>http://blacksmith.org/forums/threads/1359-Felt-I-Had-To-Modify-My-Iron-Kiss-Hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Grant, the dies in my hammers are now S-7 from Brian Russel in Tennessee. The pins are larger. They work great. As I've blogged, your dies seem too large IMO, except to be placed in the front-to-back orientation. As most always, your ideas are definitely interesting. Larger dies are available on larger Iron Kiss hammers, of course. The dies in the 100 are the same as in the Sahinler. I recommend large hammers to do large hammering jobs. Large die faces on small hammers is usually counter productive. I don't know your application. The whole point of fullering dies and force concentrating tooling is to avoid the excessive square inches of contact surface given the small tup weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Too large? They're actually just 1/4" wider than the ones that came with the hammer. I might have misspoke somewhere, they are 2-1/2 inches wide. I don't know what the width of die I choose has to do with anything. A great deal of what I do involves tooling, so the face of the hammer has very little to do with the contact area on the work. I like a nice flat area to support my tools. By the time I put a "proper" radius on them, the flat face will be less than 2". What I was really trying to address was the dovetails and the large unsupported overhang. I don't often read blogs, I'll try to find that. Wow, you got 500 blog pages, tell me which one to look at. What "pins" are larger? John, I'm not out to please anyone and I always give my honest opinion. I've spoken very highly of the machines you build, but that dovetail needed addressing. I hope you've improved the design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Too large? They're actually just 1/4" wider than the ones that came with the hammer. I might have misspoke somewhere, they are 2-1/2 inches wide. I don't know what the width of die I choose has to do with anything. A great deal of what I do involves tooling, so the face of the hammer has very little to do with the contact area on the work. I like a nice flat area to support my tools. By the time I put a "proper" radius on them, the flat face will be less than 2". What I was really trying to address was the dovetails and the large unsupported overhang. I don't often read blogs, I'll try to find that. Wow, you got 500 blog pages, tell me which one to look at. What "pins" are larger? John, I'm not out to please anyone and I always give my honest opinion. I've spoken very highly of the machines you build, but that dovetail needed addressing. I hope you've improved the design. The best part of any forum is that everyone can learn from the multiple suggestions to improve from what has been to what can be. If you throw out a suggestion/idea, be prepared to check your ego at the door. Thinking "outside the box" is what anyone in this forum or any other is asking it's members to do. As a member, I welcome it. Pick it apart, make it better. Grant just did that...like it or not. Keep it coming. As an aside, I don't like the idea of working at 90 deg from the support beam. John Emmerling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 Monster Metal, thanks for the generous offer and if I can get out that way I will certainly take you up on it. Also thanks for giving an honest opinion that doesn't seem to be terribly biased, I assumed as much about the comment of the run down Iron Kiss. John & Grant, I am still curious as to the 75# hammers ability to do the type of work I want to do? How would you say this hammer compares to say a Little Giant 100# for moving metal? John is there anyone out there using your 75# hammer to do traditional high layer Japanese swords? Thanks for all the feedback, at this point I am still leaning towards the Iron Kiss 100-20, I like the anvil ratio and like that the parts most likely to break are readily available and should be for some time to come. I look at Striker hammers and wonder you would do if you had one and had to replace a major part. With the Iron Kiss someone will always be making pnuematic cylinders and valves. And as for the weight I figure you can't go to high, I know of smiths using Nazel 3b's for the type of work I want to do. I would probably go bigger but I don't think I can afford it, the 100# will be a stretch, hence my interest in the 75#. Thanks again, Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 John, I pay very close attention to Grant's suggestions, and have for quite a few years. His many years of experience and his willingness to share them are tops in my book. Grant is my friend and sometimes guru. I stand by my comments above just as Grant does his. I think his dies are too long and too wide for that tup so far as I'm concerned. I disagree with his assessment of my dovetail pin size, and we've talked about it over the phone long before he built his new setup. It was there that he mentioned putting the dies' wedges on the far side of the dies (on the "passenger side") and it is a very good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I oriented the dies that way to take best advantage of the 135 degree "V" guides and it doesn't bother anything I do. For general purpose the more normal 45 degree orientation is probably better. Hey John (Larson), I'm very pleased with my hammer and probably tend to run flat out more than most do. Putting the wedges in the back is a real improvement. For those who might not have given it a lot of thought, we are most often using the front edge of the dies when forging. That's why I suggested John put most of the support there. I would have less concern except this hammer really hits! I really like being able to set the speed as well as the stroke on the Iron Kiss and I get an amazing powerful blow even though I rarely run more than 60 psi air. You gotta try it to believe it. Sorry to nit-pick your outstanding hammer John, just didn't feel that part measured up the same standard as the rest of the hammer. The control of this hammer is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 the 100# will be a stretch, hence my interest in the 75#. Thanks again, Justin If it's a "stretch" and not a show-stopper, go for the 100#! The 75# is wonderful and out-hits most 100's, but more is always better. Once you factor in the shipping, there's not that much difference in price. So why didn't I buy the 100 (I hear you ask)? As a tool manufacturer I want to have a hammer that more closely represents what my customers will likely be using. The "100 pound class" is beyond what most people have. My real choice would have been the IronKiss 150! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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