First Forge, Not hot enough

[Legg86]

Hello all , I'm Extremely new, this is my first forge, and today was my frist time really banging on hot metal (rail road spike i picked up, not sure if it matters, but was very pitted by rust), and i Couldnt get the spike any hotter than a cherry red color. I'm fairly certain it's my choice of "blower", but I wanted to run the whole design by people who actually know what they are doing lol. It's an old rusty firepit I had laying around, with about 6" of fireclay bult up from the bottom to make a level surface. The depression for the make shift firepot was molded with a funnel, so it's possible it's way too steep. I drilled and filed a one inch hole in the bottom of the pit (holy XXXX that was a job, I'm certain there's a better tool than what I used, but after about two hours I got it done) and placed a floor plate for the blower/ash trap to attach to. most of the piping is black iron, but I ran out, so the ash trap is galvanized (painted on the outside, but it didnt get too hot, so im not worried about it). My blower, for the moment, is yes, an air mattress foot pump. My fuel is lump charcoal.

I would say I'm not getting enough air, but i can litterly blast little pieces of flaming coals (finger knuckle sized, no less) out of the firepot a couple of feet away, So I don't really know.

Any help/ advice would be appreciated!



Edit: please disregard forge placement, Im working on something more permenant (tomorrow's project).

[NN4N]

Hey Legg86

I believe the main problem is with your air flow. I'm not quite sure if the air matress pump will work as a forge blower, but the smiths of old (hope I'm not insulting anyone ) have used bellows for years. However, yours might be a bit small. Your tuyere (pipe that leads to the forge) is quite narrow. I've had a forge with a too small tuyere too and it performed poorly. I replaced it with a 2" pipe and the performance greatly improved. You can probably blow small bits of charcoal away, because you get enough pressure, but not enough volume.

You say your firepot might be too steep, too me it seems the opposite, but maybe I can't see the actual pot because of the coal.

Another possible problem might be with your fuel. I don't have a lot of experience with charcoal, but it seems to me like you are using some massive lumps. Smaller pieces can generate more heat. For coal I've always been told that pieces should be between the size of the top half of your thumb and your thumb nail. For charcoal you'll have to run the size by someone with more experience with that fuel, but to me some chunks seem very large. Also note that barbeque charcoal is a poor choice for forging.

I've based my first 'real' forge on this guys specifications: link. Although you are probably not planning on welding a firepot you can use his drawings as a base for the size, depth and steepness of your pot. Also not that this guy uses a 3" air inlet. Additionally, just check out some forge designs on the internet (especially, fireclay forges and charcoal forges) and consider their strengths and weaknesses with a critical eye! The internet is also full of poor designs. Combine the best of all for your forge

Hope this is any help to you

NN4N

[Drewed]

I would ditch the 1" pipe and go with two inch. Also I would look at using a hair dryer for your air supply

[Legg86]

Thanks for the replies! Ya the "lump charcoal" has some really huge pieces, I let them burn down a bit into smaller pieces before I tried any forging. Next time I'm gonna cut them up. As for the foot pump, I think volume of air is the issue, I'm gonna try to make something with more consistent airflow.

[SReynolds]

I understand many seem to find it easier aka cheaper to build your own (DIY), but unless you understand how the principles work or copy cat a design, AND own a scrap/junk yard, it would seem that one would be time AND money ahead to buy one.............

I began with a brake drum and THAT ALONE cost me 35.00 plus the tax and the time and $$ to drive to a town that has a salvage yard which would sell me one. Law suits are law suits and not every scrap dealer/junk yeard/auto-salvage is allowed to sell you an old rusty/used brake drum.

Then the blower, the steel to fabricate etc.etc.etc. an it adds up quickly if you have to locate AND buy this stuff. Then if it won't operatre correctly........

This is my 175.00 factory unit.
No fuss.And I didn't have to drive out of my way to locate this.Pic is of the first fire I was building....

Don't you have coal or coke available to you? Anyone can have it shipped to their door if you can't get it locally.

[ThomasPowers]

Wow SR I have never been by a car repair place that wouldn't *give* you an old brake drum; though when I did a brake drum forge in Columbus OH I just used one I found on the side of the road...

As for shipping in many places it's quite expensive to get things shipped in and not everyone can pay several times the amount for the material to have it shipped.

Here in NM the smithing coal dealer is a 2 hour each way, make arrangements in advance, deal while I can buy lump charcoal at the local store and save enough in gas/time to pay the cost differential.

That forge may also be choked with ash after a run and the air not strong enough to blow it clean. I know that a typical blow drier puts out way too much air for charcoal, but with a diversion set up would be a fast cheap way to get more air through the fire.

[SReynolds]

....yeah, I thought it REAL odd that I couldn't just "get" one. It was explained to me that folks are so cheap now, that thay "hunt" for used brakes parts to install on an operational vehicle. Thusly, they are no longer "allowed" to sell you one.


There are options here and I won't go into details, other than to say it may be a five finger discount or you literally pay some guy at a salvage yard (under the table mind you) to snag you one.

Law suits are law suits. It is the times which we live in.

Funny; cuz the books written back in the 70's when blacksmithing became a popular past-time, say you can build your own brake drum forge for free and that the old forge blowers would only cost you a few bucks. (Please read the print date of your "How To" blacksmithing book)

Anyone buy an old Champion blower on e-bay for a few bucks???? LOL LOL LOL :blink:

[Legg86]

I was able to put my cobbled up forge together for less than a bought one (far less), and so far its working decently, worth the money that I paid so that I could learn what I'm doing, at least. No real point to getting too deep into tools/equipment before I know how use them lol. and it's always great fun to "build your own", no matter what it is. As for coal, Ive looked around where I live, and i cant really find anything less than a couple hours drive or more, so for the tinkering that I do, charcoal works now that I've gotten my temperature problem fixed. (my firepot was too small, I wasnt using enough fuel, air pressure was too low/high and was highly variable, etc.) Now I just need to learn how to build a good charcoal fire : )

[MattBower]

Yeah, that's not going to be an adequate bellows. Too small, air flow inconsistent. There's a reason the old-timers' bellows were enormous and double-chambered. Stick a blow dryer on the end of that pipe. You'll need to add a way to divert or choke some of the air flow. If you're into the neo-tribal thing, you can also build a double-chamber bellows from a couple five gallon plastic buckets. This setup is inspired by skin or pot bellows used probably since before the beginning of recorded history. I have not tried it, but it seems plausible for a small forge.

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/132816/Bellows#reply-132816

There's no reason to go stealing brake drums to make a forge. (Let's drop the euphemisms, shall we?) I started smithing with a Lively style forge made from a washtub lined with adobe. Works just fine -- in fact it's probably a lot more flexible than a brake drum.

[Blackbeard]

well welcome to iforge i agree with you on not spending to much while you are learning and building it yourself is always fun! Experiment its the way to learn...about those lumps of charcoal just bash them with a hammer viola smaller peices lol
Good luck with the learning process around here there are always experienced people to lend a hand so ask if you struggle!
BB

[Legg86]

Thanks for the idea matt, I think I might actually make some of that and try it out. I took apart one of those old electric leaf blowers and siphoned off some of the air to get a consistant airflow to the forge, but I Really don't like dragging out my generator just to get the small amount of air that I need.
I don't want to hijack my own thread, but I have a couple of other questions too:
1) where did you guys get your first pair of tongs? I dont Know any blacksmiths so I can't exactly scrounge, nor do I know what I really need so I dont want to order a 40-60 dollar tool that might be totally useless or easy to fashion.

2) at the moment I'm just playing around learning how to hit metal without doing it at an angle, and I'm banging on old rail road spikes I find along the tracks close to my farm. there are no steel mills within a decent distance to me, does anyone have any other suggestions on where to get stock?

[MattBower]

Make the tongs. It's a traditional starter project. I made my first pair. They were pretty bad, but they worked.

http://www.blksmth.com/tong_article.htm
http://www.dfoggknives.com/photo_gallery/NedborTongs/nedbortongdemonesmw.html

The first two show making bolt tongs, which is a bit more complicated but good for spikes. Flat tongs are easier to start with.

On that last one, don't try to forge weld the reins as a beginner. Just draw them out. If you start with a long enough piece of stock you can forge the two jaws on either end of the same piece, draw out the reins, then cut the piece in half to separate them. Punch or drill a hole for the rivet. Drilling may be easier if you're working alone, but if you plan to drill you should leave more material in the area of the joint for strength. It's not ideal, but you can cut off the head of a big landscaping nail to use as a rivet; that way you have one head of the rivet already made for you.

There's also a guy on eBay named Ken Scharabok, who runs a store called Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools. He makes functional tongs for hobbyists and beginners at a lower price than you'd pay at Blacksmith Depot or the like, although the quality isn't as high. He fabricates them. I have a pair. They're decent. (And he doesn't claim more than that.)

You don't need a steel mill; you need a steel retailer or a scrap yard. Got a Tractor Supply around you? They sell mild steel in the basic forms on their website, so if the store doesn't have it they can probably get it for you. And there's usually lots of scrap metal lying around in farm country if you look for it.

[ThomasPowers]

I got my first set of tongs right over there----WHERE ARE YOU AT.

Actually you don't need a pair of tongs to make a pair of tongs---you just start with pieces of steel long enough to hold on to while forging the working ends.

For small stuff a pair of gatepost pliers can work. I've seen lots of folks using visegrips, but the heat tends to mess up the springs---just like in arc welding with them...

I generally buy my tongs at the fleamarket and pay US$6 and under---my favorite knifemaking tongs cost me $1.50! Many of the cheap tongs are not in great shape however it's a lot easier and faster to repair of modify a pair than to forge them from ground zero, (which I have done like when I made Ti tongs) Just be wary that the "old" tongs you are getting are not wrought iron ones; they are a bit harder for a new smith to work with.

Leaf blowers make obnoxious noise; far better to salvage a car heater blower and run it off a 12 volt car battery!

[SReynolds]

......nor do I advocate stealing old brake drums. Why I drove the distance I did to buy one for $35 plus tax.

On the same note, I recently stopped in at two auto parts stores and no dice on used drums. They stock pile them and trade them for scrap iron cash. Who wouldn't?

I have seen old cast iron cookware used. That may be easier to locate and perhaps cheaper.

I agree that 110 volt leaf blowers are noisy. That would get real old.

[pkrankow]

......nor do I advocate stealing old brake drums. Why I drove the distance I did to buy one for $35 plus tax.

On the same note, I recently stopped in at two auto parts stores and no dice on used drums. They stock pile them and trade them for scrap iron cash. Who wouldn't?

I have seen old cast iron cookware used. That may be easier to locate and perhaps cheaper.

I agree that 110 volt leaf blowers are noisy. That would get real old.

Vacuums are loud too. Sound about the same as leaf blowers.

If you have a steel shelf you can just put the tue on it and clay the shelf like a rivet forge. You can use your container you have. It will be heavy though.

Mix
1 part portland
3 parts sand
optional 1/2 part clay
Add JUST enough water so it forms a hard ball that breaks instead of mushing when you squeeze it.

I did a brake job on my car to get 2 drums.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

Auto Parts store????? Think shade tree mechanic or small non-chain auto repair set up. Here in Socorro NM I could give you a dozen names and we're a town of under 10k people! The bigger the business the more likely it is to have strict control on all inputs and outputs and the least likely to have someone interested in what you are doing just say, "pile's out back; go crazy!"

Note that for a small business a dozen doughnuts or a hand forged trinket can go a long way to gaining access to the goodies!

Also be prepared to listen to everyone's stores about their relations who were smiths---but *listen*! I've run down more than a few anvils or other tools that way!