ianinsa Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 "pretty green"? but certainly no cabbage! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 So I got a full month under my belt and thought I would give an update... First off I am to a point where I feel my production is reasonable.. I have timed several runs and can easily forge 40-50 tools an hour... Thats not a mad dash to beat the clock, just a steady pace with the intent of not wasting any time. I have developed a couple of techniques that greatly save on time... One is the forming of a new point or chisel behind a broken or cracked tool. Because I am using induction I never get the tool very hot. I am doing most of the work at a high red heat.. And because of that its hard to clip the whole end of the tool off... By not cutting it but rather forging a new end back in the shank I dont loose any heat to cutting.. This only works because my incline die has a sharp back and I have enough power, You couldn't do that with a 100lb hammer, just not enough umph.... I do all the chisels this way... just lay the whole tool off the end of the die and forge a new chisel behind it and then nip off the end to create the working edge.. Most of the points I nip off before forging, I cut off all of the existing point and because I can put quite a bit of heat back into the tool working it that works out fine... I still have enough residual heat to quench. If there is no point to begin with I lay the whole tool off the back of the die and forge a new point behind the blunt end (so there is blob still out on the end) and then nip and dress the point.... My biggest unknown starting was the heat treat but I feel good about how the tools are holding up. There is one batch that is a weekly run so I've seen the same tools back three times now. My system is holding up much better than the tools I saw when they first came in. It seems my proses produces a much more useable tool. I was seeing a lot of mushroomed tools when I started, and quite a few full breaks. Opposite ends of heat treat problems.. With my proses I have yet to see a full break and no mushroomed tools... Just the wear you would expect from use... Im sure I will have failures but its looking like it will be a tiny fraction of what the previous blacksmiths proses produced... This coming week I am going to set up a 32ton punch press to nip the tools and replace the IR 40... This is mostly because my 10HP compressor has to run 100% of the time to keep up with the IR... .I have already burned up one 10 HP compressor motor and I drain about 3 gallons of water out of my system a day.... I had a 7.5HP compressor sitting around so now I have both plumed into my 400 gal air system... Its just not efficient.. I can run a 2 HP motor on a punch press all day instead of a 10HP compressor to do the same job (actually I am hoping I'll be able to nip the tools a little colder with the punch press which will speed things a little) One thing That disappointing me a little is I am still doing the vast majority of the tools. My son has been doing a few but he is so much slower than me that it pains me for him to do them... He gets about 25% done of what I can do and at of course it drives me bonkers... I cant get anything done while he is working on them because all I can think about is what he is doing... He is doing a good job, I just have to get him up to speed... Another fear I have is the toll this is taking on my 3B.... I am working it hard... I have learned quite a bit about the hammer in the last month as I have never before just stood in front of it for 10 hours at a time with my foot to the floor... You see and hear things that you never would under "normal" operation... One thing is I am amazed at how much flex there is in the frame. When I am finishing a chisel on a 1 1/4 shank tool at the tail end I am full out on a very thin chunk of pretty cold tool steel (its red but not what we would normally think of as forging temp on a alloy or tool steel bar) and I can see the flex in the machine.... I bet there is 1/8-3/16 of give every strike... and this is a one peice hammer.. its not bounce, its flex... Think about how much force it takes to flex that big 4140 steel casting that's the base of a one peice Nazel (the upper frame is still cast iron) Another thing that annoys me is the retaining pin in my upper die is in the wrong place by about 25 thou.... the die always pushes to the same side of the pin becuase I forge the asphalt cutters on the end of the die and when its pushed tight to the pin it sticks about 30 thou past the tup.... I made a new pin to make sure it was as tight as it could be but it still moves proud... I think the only thing I can do is take the die in and have it ground on that side so when its tight its has clearance... As far as the economics of it I still have a bit to figure out. I have spent a lot of money in the last two months getting set up for this.. I bought a second induction forge and a large industrial cooler... A couple of large wheel grinders and a belt grinder... My power bill doubled... Went from $161 to $298 month before to last month... Thats the highest its ever been... Considering thats the 10 HP motor on the 3B, the 5HP motor on the grinder, Always the 10HP motor on the compressor and once in a while the 7.5HP one as well AND the induction forge.... I really dont think thats too bad... I mean the shop before me was spending $800 a month on natural gas alone... The only thing I am really scared of from a finance aspect is that there is not "gravy" money to upgrade and repair machines... Most of my work there is the occasional project of job that you get a windfall or a big payday at the end.. Ive always spent that money on machines there is no big payday in this... Its steady but its lean... all my payments have been $1400-$1600 a week and I would say Im spending 20-30 hours or so to do the work... Its not awful but its a far cry from my shop rate.. If I broke the 3B Im not sure there is enough money in it to spend $15-$20 grand on a new hammer to replace it... The only reason its not profitable though is because I have such a big operation with lots of overhead... The thought as crossed my mind that if I just had a little building and just the machinery to do this job I might actually make more money than I can in my big shop with all my stuff... I spend about $80,000 a year in expenses... If I got rid of all that and had a little shop that cost me $500 a month I could put $60K a year in my pocket and only work 20-30 hrs a week.... Of course I wont do that but its kind of sad to me that it makes sense.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I wish I had your shop electric bill for my house...All electric... You need to set your son up and walk away. Really. Get him started, then go pick up lunch or something so you leave him be for an hour or so every day and see if he finds a groove. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Phil nailed it. Your son will never get any faster if his Dad doesn`t leave him alone to work it out for himself. You are being your own worst enemy again Larry as I`m sure you know. The key to this whole thing is to let him see you doing the process and then showing him the end results at each milestone along the way. Once he understands it all,WALK AWAY!!! The fact is it doesn`t need to be done your way it just has to be done. Let him have the leeway to decide for himself what the quickest way from point A to point B is. To paraphrase General George Patton: "Never tell a man how to do something,tell him instead what you want done and when you need it. Then stand back,give him room and prepare to be amazed". Your son`s advantage is that he isn`t looking at this thru preconceived ideas based on all that past experience. That gives him a freedom to see alternatives that you will never see. Take that freedom away from him and you only make it harder for him to exceed your expectations. He shouldn`t be in competition with his father,which he is now. He only needs skills and abilities that compliment the work at hand and he should be encouraged to see the things his boss fails to see. Things like a faster,more efficient and safer ways to accomplish the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 Your right but it's not that simple. If I just walked away at this point at his current rate he would need to put in 7 12 hour days to do what I can do In two 10 hour days. And at the end of that 80 hour week there is another pile just as big waiting... He needs practice to improve but he can only put in so many practice hours before it creates major work flow problems.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 The other thing is I have told him for now you do only what I tell you. When he has more time under the hammer he can do it his own way. But he is a 19 year old kid. With very little big machinery experience running machines that can kill him.... I told him priority one is don't hurt yourself , two don't hurt the machine and three is the job.... I agree with you Bob... There is just a lot more to the big picture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Larry, I seem to remember that part of the reason for taking on the sharpening was to be able to pay your son a living wage. It looks to me like that goal is very possible. Could you have him work on the points Mondays and Tuesdays and then be ready to take care of the leftovers yourself later in the week? This would give him some big chunks of time to get the hang of it and still make sure the work doesn't fall behind. I'd make some kind of schedule and stick to it. You don't want to be jumping in snatching the work away from him because you think he's too slow. (Even if that's not what you're doing it could feel that way to him. Blacksmiths are often bad communicators, especially in the shop.) It takes years of practice to be able to forge efficiently, so you need to find a way to let him get some practice in while still getting all the work done. It's also important that any employee (especially your son) feel like you trust him with the work. That can't happen if you keep pulling him off of it. Give him a preset chunk of time, if there's leftovers, you do them and when there's finally no leftovers then give him a raise. I understand your concern about wear and tear on the equipment (and possibly on your son). Not really sure what to suggest there. No point ditching all the other equipment and moving the pointing operation into a shed, the whole purpose is to be able to play with all the toys. Sounds like the process is moving in the right direction, good luck getting the details worked out. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Larry the only way he is going to get faster is hours in front of the machine. The shop I did most of my apprenticeship at paid first year apprentices 40% of journeyman wages. Sounds like your son is at that stage right now putting out about 40% maybe a little less of what you can. If you ever want him to take over you have to let him get some hours in without you looking over his shoulder. Lewis's idea of having him forge early in the week is a good one. That being said you need to get him doing ALL the prep work and post forging work, any sorting, stacking, loading, unloading, grinding and cleaning. To be profitable with a first year apprentice in the shop[ you should not be doing any of the unskilled work in the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 All good input... Its a unique situation and I struggle with balance. I'll sit down with him on Monday and work out some sort of a schedule to get him a solid block of time in front of the machine every week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I thought he had some experience with your machines,you make it sound like he`s just been thrown into this as his first real large project. If that`s the case then he definitely needs to be doing everything that doesn`t involve the actual forging. When he`s not doing the peripheral jobs he should be watching you and finding out how you can control the machine and move metal like you do. In the end if you brought this job in so he`d have an income then the only way he`ll be able to shoulder it is to have that time behind the controls with you supervising till you know he`ll be safe alone. With new hires the progression has been; Phase 1- explain the task and the standards,demonstrate the task performed to standard, ask if there are any questions after the demo. Phase 2- break the task down by the numbers and demonstrate at an easy to follow instructional speed,then have the new guy perform each step to standard regardless of time while you supervise and coach,once he can execute the step to standard you begin to combine steps till he has completed the entire task to standard. Phase 3- gradually increase the speed while maintaining safety till he can perform the task to standard in the required time. It`s been my experience that talking/listening part doesn`t help much except to get the progression straight in their minds,the hands on doing is where the real learning takes place. I try to get the work out of my hands and into theirs as quickly as possible so they can learn to feel how it`s done. The only time I completely take the work back from them is to re-demonstrate what needs to be done or if they are being unsafe. Better to have their hands and my hand(s) on the work so their hands can feel what the "right way" feels like. If there is one particular type of bit that he is good at handling and can pound out quicker than the others then I`d let him master that type first. Nothing is as motivating as success. If you try and get someone working a wide variety of tasks right from the start then you only increase their likelihood of them getting confused and lost and then make mistakes. Take the easiest first and then build upon their success there and add more complex tasks as skills progress. I`ve found this progression works for everything from fab work to final assembly during shipyard work, to drill and ceremonies and basic rifle marksmanship in the Army. I`ve had excellent luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Good info Bob... I think your on the money... He is not totally green... In my opinion he is a heck of a hand for a 19 year old kid.. He is better than any other helper I have had and he has his head on straight... But he is still a 19 year old kid.. If he wasn't my kid I would forget that is barely out of diapers... He acts more like a guy in his late twenty's than one that's not twenty yet... We will have a sit down in the morning and get back on track.... I'll report back in a month or so B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Hey Larry, Sounds like the jobs heading in the right direction! It might be worth considering taking the die blocks out of the hammer when you get a spare half day and polishing (untill they shine) the internal radi in the ram and the anvil. We use a 'spira-bands' (like sanding bobbins) in a quill grinder in progressivly finer grits. It does make a big difference. Make sure your wedges are well seated, blue them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Larry, Sounds to me like you have enough info and facts, that you can go back to your client and effectively negotiate a price bump to meet your needs which will give you the time for your son to safely learn the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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