harrismetalsmith Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I am wondering what the original die height is for a Nazel 2B. If anyone has a 2b please measure yours and post the height. I have a top die on mine that is way short. I want to make a new one. What is the height including the dovetail? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I am wondering what the original die height is for a Nazel 2B. If anyone has a 2b please measure yours and post the height. I have a top die on mine that is way short. I want to make a new one. What is the height including the dovetail? Thanks in advance. I have die key chart, but not a die chart... send me an email and I can send that to you. ric (at) doorcountyforgeworks (dot) com You know that the ram has a tick mark for max extension....worse comes to worse I suggest you build the new dies a bit longer than that to allow for safety margin and die resurfacing over time. I think I made mine (3B) a full 1.5" longer than the line...could have done 3/4" and been fine I think. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Nazel used pretty tall dies, if I remember correctly (notice that is a big if) they are 6 inches tall. 1-1/2" is quite a bit of windage, robs from the stroke too. On a one-piece hammer I'd go 1/2" extra and a bit more on a two-piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Is your machine a one piece or two piece? The reason I ask is if the anvil is set lower or higher on a two piece the height of your dies will change accordingly. One piece can not change so the factory specs should be fine. Use the max extension mark and add what you think is enough extra 1/2" to 3/4" is what Grant and Ric said. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 Thanks for your responses guys. I will plan on having about 1/2" to 3/4" extra for wear. The bottom die is 6" so I was thinking maybe the top was as well. My hammer is a 2 piece. Unfortunately I didn't know better when I set the hammer, and I set it up for the current top die. What a mistake, because the top die I have is only 3" including the dovetail. I've lost 3" of stroke between the hammer and bottom die because of this. I also set the hammer too low for me. I worked at an industrial shop in Philly for a while and their 3B was set low for safety and all the men who worked there were short Italians. I'm 6'4" and my hammer is just too low. Soooooo..... because the hammer is too low and I've lost some stroke from the top die being too short. I've decided to raise the hammer and in the process replace the top die. My plan is to actualy mill a new matched pair. I have a copy of the Nazel Hammer Book, and other literature I got from Bob Bergman. But none of it talks about die height. They give die surface sizes, but no height. Kinda crazy. All the pictures do show the dies quite tall. Any sugestions on die steel? I can get some surplus 4140 from a friend of a friend cheap. Will that be a good steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 You shouldn't have lost any stroke, although you would if you put a 6" die in it now. Depending on how thick your dies are 4140 is marginal. 2-1/2" or more is tough to get really good hardness. The factory dies were only 1050 and Rc36, but then I've seen them pretty badly mushroomed too. 4340 can be used at Rc 48-52 and is very tough. I'm only 5 foot 12, but I liked my 2-B and my 4-B with the bottom die at 38" high. Bigger hammers I set much lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 Grant, thanks for the steel recomendation. I will see what I can come up with. You are right there isn't a loss of stroke right now. But because I set the machine and anvil for the dies that are in it, the anvil is set 3" higher to accomidate the short uper die. So the loss is in daylight between the bottom die and the bottom of the ram guide collar. Instead of 11" like it should be, it is closer to 8". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Nazel used pretty tall dies, if I remember correctly (notice that is a big if) they are 6 inches tall. 1-1/2" is quite a bit of windage, robs from the stroke too. On a one-piece hammer I'd go 1/2" extra and a bit more on a two-piece. Not theonly place I have wind Grant...would do it differently again or may trim down the dies at some point.............maybe its the lack of power in that last 1" that makes me want to have a 6B...want..not need. I get even less power when I drop in the swages and such which shorten he blow even more. However, Not much needs doing here in the shop that can not be done in another heat and I do have a certain comfort in knowledge that the ram will not bottom out. My dies were cut/milled from a bottom die block off a drop hammer...Finkl and Sons "FX" or "FX2" steel not sure which....if you have a large drop hammer place near you it may be worth a call for dies they no longer need...mine were used as is with no heat treating beyond what they were in their past life and they cut and machines fine. Have a look at the Finkl website and give a call. http://www.finkl.com/ Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 i know the 2b i am gonna try to rescue has a "floating" anvil as he called it i guess thats the two part you speak of, a lot of stuff that little giant didnt hit me with . this hammer takes a two part foundation ideally with the massive block the anvil sits on isolated from the building foundation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 i know the 2b i am gonna try to rescue has a "floating" anvil as he called it i guess thats the two part you speak of, a lot of stuff that little giant didnt hit me with . this hammer takes a two part foundation ideally with the massive block the anvil sits on isolated from the building foundation. Not so much a two part...my 3B has a depression cast in the foundation where the anvil sits on wood...the hammer sits on 2" of wood above and over the anvil.....4x8x4 foot deep....wish I had a bit more concrete under it actually. So... it is one monolithic pour isolated from the shop floor. If I had a 2B I would put the anvil on a leveling pad of urethane and bolt it to a 2" plate about 4x8 foot..set the hammer on "I" beam or "C" channel also on a stiff urethane pad and set that whole thing on the concrete with another pad under. It adds some weight, but now the whole tool can be lifted and moved rather easily. If you will do heavy use then cut out the floor and pour a pad...but i would still have the machine on a single bit of steel plate. Good luck with the rebuild! Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I'll try to measure mine tomorrow. You might have to remind me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted March 24, 2011 Author Share Posted March 24, 2011 I'm thinking that 5" to 5 1/2" was the original height. I took some known measurements from the machine , scaled them to some 2b pictures from original nazel literature, and those are the numbers I came up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Harris, Mine on the 2B were made by Bob Bergman when he had this machine. I dont know why he would make them different than factory height but I can not say for sure. They are 5" tall and the distance from the top of the bolster block to the bottom of the ram guide is 14" I can show pics if you like weather is bad now though. This machine is mounted on 3" plate like Ric had mentioned and I highly recommend this way of mounting, the pics are of how easy it was to unload the 15,500 lb machine with base and a closeup of the base. Bottom die height is a bit shy of 42" off the ground. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 Rob thanks for taking the time to measure your dies and post the pictures. That is how I am going to mount it when I pull the hammer to raise it. I see the 3" baseplate. Are the other plates under the hammer and anvil steel as well? Or are they a composite or timbers, hard to tell from the picture. Cool thing happened today. I got a call from my old boss who sold me my hammer. He has some old die material to get rid of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 yeah I have the same questions about what is under the anvil in the pic... is that a second steel plate or urethane or? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Rob thanks for taking the time to measure your dies and post the pictures. That is how I am going to mount it when I pull the hammer to raise it. I see the 3" baseplate. Are the other plates under the hammer and anvil steel as well? Or are they a composite or timbers, hard to tell from the picture. Cool thing happened today. I got a call from my old boss who sold me my hammer. He has some old die material to get rid of. I can post more pics of the rest of the mounting if you need it. It machine is on what seems to be solid steel plates (2 @ 3 1/2" if I remember right) from the weight of it. They are the size of the footprint and the anvil is on some kind of VERY dense plastic, 1 5/8". I thought it was steel until a red hot metal started to burn it. Glad to help Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 I now have a properly sized top die, and I'm almost finished with the bottom die. My old boss from Philadelphia came through with some good die steel. So I am fitting them up to the machine. Does anyone have any good tricks for machining keys? Templating the trapezoid cross section? I measure with a caliper and lay it out on a blued piece of steel, but I'm open to other ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 First I square up a piece, then I use 5 or 7 degree vise jaws as shown to finish. Machine one side, turn it over and I indicate the piece to 1/8 inch per foot and machine the final taper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 First I square up a piece, then I use 5 or 7 degree vise jaws as shown to finish. Machine one side, turn it over and I indicate the piece to 1/8 inch per foot and machine the final taper. Nice way of jigging that. Thank you for sharing the picture and idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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