David56 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I have purchased a few new leaf springs(5160 tempered, air hardening) to use as straight katana sword blades with lenghts of 24" to 29". This is going to be my first attempt at making swords, but have worked with metal for many years. So after cutting out my blade with a plasma cutter, and bringing the shape of the blade to is desired appearance, except for its final sharpening, then i must forge the blade to a non-magnet state for 5 mins, and then cool in wood ash or oil. Is this correct? Would appreciate any wisdom that you all may have. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Depends entirely on how you want to heat treat it. Traditional heat treating on japanese blades is a very detailed process that can't be covered in a simple post. Wally Hayes has a good DVD out on making a sevicable "ghetto katana" that covers alot of those aspects. However, I would question why you want to make a katana as a first sword. They aren't exactly the easiest of swords to make properly. While 5160 is generally a good sword making steel, I am not how it will react to the traditional heat treating methods as I have never tried it. Aside from the one masochistic endeavor of meking one from tamahagane steel my old apprentice and I bloomed, all of the katana I have made since have been laminated 1085 over 1018 to more closely approximate the composition of the old blades. I highly recommend doing some in depth research on how they were made, and you will realize that they aren't at all a simple undertaking. But don't let me discourage you from trying. You might just be a natural at it, I am just suggesting you do some serious research on the subject or you might just end up trashing some otherwise valuable steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 One thing that bothers me, besides the point about your choice of a Katana as a first blade, is your choice to start with a steel you appear to know little or nothing about? Please be careful, Read more before you try this. Also if you take some time to look, there is a lot about 5160 swords in this section of the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David56 Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 Depends entirely on how you want to heat treat it. Traditional heat treating on japanese blades is a very detailed process that can't be covered in a simple post. Wally Hayes has a good DVD out on making a sevicable "ghetto katana" that covers alot of those aspects. However, I would question why you want to make a katana as a first sword. They aren't exactly the easiest of swords to make properly. While 5160 is generally a good sword making steel, I am not how it will react to the traditional heat treating methods as I have never tried it. Aside from the one masochistic endeavor of meking one from tamahagane steel my old apprentice and I bloomed, all of the katana I have made since have been laminated 1085 over 1018 to more closely approximate the composition of the old blades. I highly recommend doing some in depth research on how they were made, and you will realize that they aren't at all a simple undertaking. But don't let me discourage you from trying. You might just be a natural at it, I am just suggesting you do some serious research on the subject or you might just end up trashing some otherwise valuable steel. I want to thank you for your reply, i guess what i'm trying to make is a ghetto katana as you call it, maybe there is a different forum that i should be in contact with, any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Did you find the information given in this forum lacking? Your questions have been answered many times in this sword section of IFI if you took the time to read them, I am sorry if you don't like the answers you found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Quenching in oil and cooling in wood ash have the completely opposite effects. Oil quenching hardens the steel, and cooling in wood ash anneals the steel, softening it about as much as it can be. Not to harp on it, but learn basic heat treatment with smaller blades, then tackle the swords. Otherwise you're looking at an awful lot of work to screw up or end up with something that is unusable. I'll assume you already know the shaping aspects, but if you are that far off on the heat treatment aspect, it makes me wonder if you have the shaping aspect down either. We're seriously not trying to be discouraging, but walk, then run, then join Cirque du Soleil. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Quenching in oil and cooling in wood ash have the completely opposite effects. Oil quenching hardens the steel, and cooling in wood ash anneals the steel, softening it about as much as it can be. Not to harp on it, but learn basic heat treatment with smaller blades, then tackle the swords. Otherwise you're looking at an awful lot of work to screw up or end up with something that is unusable. I'll assume you already know the shaping aspects, but if you are that far off on the heat treatment aspect, it makes me wonder if you have the shaping aspect down either. We're seriously not trying to be discouraging, but walk, then run, then join Cirque du Soleil. Stormcrow is dead on. Your understanding of heat treating seems very shaky. And that's the most crucial part of making a functional blade. Short version: after nomalizing as appropriate for the existing state of your blade, heat evenly to 1550-1600 F and hold at that temp for about 5 minutes, then quench in preheated oil. The long version will take more time than I have right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClaville Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 if you heat treat the steel any way before knowing what you are doing, and pan on giving it the unavoidable test on what ever soft material, THEN BE SURE to use a lot of safety gear and have no bystanders in a long long range as you can easily kill your self or others if a sharp blade breaks cus of bad hardening and tempering sorry i know this sound over scared but it can happen.. swords are very difficult to HT right so as others have said learn how to do it on smaller blades (knife size) first and read around the net just from searching there is more info then you can ever read on it there is so much to understand on this that a answer cant be given in a single few posts on any forum. the learning process is also a big fun part of it all good luck and have fun DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 You know that Hrisoulas' books, (The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith, The Pattern-Welded Blade) go into great detail on swordsmithing as he does that as a profession. If you live in the USA you should be able to go to the local public library and if they don't have a copy ask them to ILL one for you. Why folks think a page or two of random internet posts will be better than several hundred pages of in depth info from a master I will never understand. If you don't have a library card; you're dissing Ben Franklin big time! (and wasting $$$$$$$) Note that 5160 is not an air hardening steel. Oil quenches for katanas can result in the straightening of Sori rather than the creation of it---did you factor that into your design? Don't want to end up with a falcata-katana! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Now that I'm no longer typing with two thumbs, I second Thomas's recommendation of the Hrisoulas books. A sword absolutely should not be your first foray into heat treating steel, regardless of how much experience you may have with other forms of metal working. Heat treating is a profession unto itself, and so is ferrous metallurgy -- which is also the subject of doctorates. I'm not saying you need to earn a doctorate or become a professional heat treater to heat treat blades, but to do it right, there's more to know than you'll get from a few quick posts on this or any other forum, and you really do need to gain experience with smaller blades. Theory is crucial, but in the real world there are a dozen little (or not so little) things that can screw up the whole program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiapan Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am no where near as experienced as many of the fine members of this board. But i have to agree that trying to make a Sword from scratch and heat treating it is a very , well lets just ambitious endeavor.Smaller projects make a lot more sense All of the suggestions for readings are great, and libraries are a sorely overlooked source of knowledge in this golden age of the internet. Everyday i read more and realize how little i truly know. But i do know this, most of the time when you get a leaf spring, it is already at a fairly great hardness and temper for a sword. Now its not a professional differential hardening, but it will work in a pinch( hence the spring quality of a leaf spring). but when you cut with a torch it took away the temper of the steel. If you bought more then one i would try my hand with Slow stock removal until you reach the shape you want. which can take a long long long time with a curved blade. here is a link with some pretty basic instructions. they just take a lot of time and effort, and lots and lots of patience, but i will tell you this, i think all of the members here can agree that those are very important attributes for anyone truly interested in becoming a bladesmith/swordsmith. But most importantly, Be SAFE. P.S. Take the information on the site with a grain or two of salt, the author has a little bit of an attitude towards people in certain professions and acts a little immature (also some information seems fairly historically referenced while other information is outright silly, for instance the reference to the groove in the sword as a blood groove, hilarious lol) Second P.S., I do know people that have made blades using similar concepts as the site and the blades did indeed function well. they made shorter machete style blades but they were nice heavy choppers that hold an edge very well and polished up real nice.Staff memo: link removed, IFI does not advise cold forging used springs. This is asking for serious injury. Only Xrays can see what fractures are already in the spring from its use in the past. Example, no matter how many times a child successfully runs across a highway without first looking, it is still asking for trouble. Also the suggestion that only auto makers can heat treat steel properly is an insult to many, and a myth. For those that do not already know: a spring has different heat treat needs than a blade does. We strive to post accurate information at IFI forum and not promote myths and fallacy hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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