Project symmetry

[easilyconfused]

Just wondering if anyone has any tips on how to keep things symmetrical. For example, I'm currently making 4 handles to go on the new shed sliding doors. I seem to spend more time trying to make them symetrical than anything else. I have chalk marks all over my anvil for measurements, try and work on the same part on all 4 handles as close to the same time as possible but still have problems with symmetry. Any of the veteran smither's have any other tips they've picked up to share with the still learning?
Thanks,
Ryan

[Frosty]

Ryan:

Consistency between pieces is the hard part of the craft.

Learning to accurately measure starting stock vs. finished piece, when to stop and how to fudge are all important skills.

The only real answer I have is practice practice practice.

Of course I could be wrong and will watch closely for new tricks.

Frosty

[easilyconfused]

Practice is key, but sometimes it's nice to get tips rather than finding them out from trial and error. That's how we progress any craft. If everyone was left to trial and error, we would all wind up doing similar things and making similar mistakes. By giving the up-and-commers tips on things you've learnt from trial and error, you give them a step up to get to your level faster so that the craft can move on to bigger and better things, IMHO.

[Brian C.]

easily confused- Fear not, you are not alone in this. I had not been smithing very long when my eldest son asked me to make 20 3-legged centerpieces for his wedding reception. I probably made enough pieces to build 40 trying to get some that were at least close to each other. A veritable nightmare. As noted above- practice seems to be the key.

[HWooldridge]

You can make simple jigs from pins and flats to form around and it's important to ALWAYS measure - both in cutting the basic stock sizes and as you work. Here's an example: I make a simple poker design that has a loop handle and a working end that forms an upside down "J". I forge a small point on the handle end and curl it back, then quench the tip and wrap the hot stock about 3/4 around a 2" piece of shaft, leaving about an inch of space. Next, I tap the handle closed so I get a slight oval. The other end is pointed by hand and flattened under the power hammer, then wrapped around a 3/4" piece of shaft. I made 30 of these in 2005 and sold the last one a couple of weeks ago so had to make some more. The poker finishes at 28" and the new batch checked right at 28" - give or take 1/16.

Even on things that I make more often, I always write down stock sizes, jigs and methods so I don't have to reinvent the wheel. I also mark jigs with a number so I'm not confused by a term like "one inch jig". I suggest you practice this on anything you plan to make more than once plus it's also a big help on similar projects.

Another recommendation I have is to forge similar items at similar heat colors and number of heats. In other words, if you can forge a detail in two heats at a bright yellow, make all the rest in two heats at a bright yellow. Although I don't think many people care to count hammer blows, you will begin to find that a group of items similar in design will develop a "cycle time" that is consistent from piece to piece. It may sound like mass production but is really a path to consistency.

[Ten Hammers]

I guess I'm different. When I do production work ( my stuff or stuff for the customer) I try and get same thing each time. This will involve ( lets say in drawing point on 3/16 square) counting strokes as I rotate wrist. Hollis is EXACTLY right on the heat colors. Many things can make a difference. Light in the shop window, cigarette in the ashtray, etc. Try cutting 6 pieces of 3/8 square to 9 " length. Draw point on the first end and count ( or use a tune in your head etc ). Develop a rhythm. Next piece draw the same. On through the pieces. Also try forging the square to round (drawn part). Put a pigtail on the tip and make bend for hook. Make 6 "S " hooks and use the horn. See what you need to do to duplicate each one. If this involves making a chalk mark on the anvil from the first one you forged ( for length ) than by all means do that. Use the tong jaws for length measurement if you wish. Whatever works. As has been mentioned, you need to stand in the fire to get this experience. Practice is it. Get some satisfaction. I use a ton of jigs and fixtures to make stuff the same but they all still are a little different. That's why they call it hand forged. As far as symmetry goes it's in the eye of the beholder. Bill Printy gave me one of the best pieces of advice I've ever had. He said " Steve, you need to know when to quit " . Fixtures made from pieces of pipe make excellent tools to make hooks look close to the same.

[irnsrgn]

each piece identical is machine made, slight differences is hand made, easy to tell the difference at a glance.

[Ed Thomas]

E. Confused: I'd have to see a picture of what you are doing for more specific advise, but as you noticed, handles are very difficult to replicate. There are several areas that aggravate the problem. I'm assuming the handles are single piece with a flat at each end to put screws through... the classic lima-bean-ended, round-bar handle. These are the steps I'd take to try to home in on the problem areas:

1) Cut the pieces from identical stock to exactly the same length. Trim as needed.
2) Isolate the end for the bean where the screw goes through exactly the same on piece.
3) Shape the bean end.
4) Taper the handle to the bean. Measure the total length.
5) Forge the other pieces until they are all the same length and the bean and taper looks the same.
6) Do the other end the same way... form the bean end and taper. Compare this to one of the other partially completed handles. It is easier to see it that way than to compare it to the other end of the same handle, if that makes sense.
6) Make the other end of the remaining handles and measure them. Adjust till they are all the same.
7) Mark the center of the handle. Measure equally from the center toward each end to the point you want to bend. Put a punch mark on the INSIDE at each end where you want to the bend to start. Put another mark where you want to bend it the other way.
8) Bend right on that first mark as a reference, and then the other. Pay attention to how much you bent, and do the other end the same amount.
9) Put the handle on the anvil and adjust till it stands flat without falling over and is level across the top.
10) Form the first bend on the next handle and compare it to the first. Adjust as necessary and continue. Do the rest the same way.

Some problem areas as I see them:

The curves don't all start at the same place.
The curves are sharper or shallower on each one.
The bean ends are the same shape, often using differing amounts of material.
The tapers are different lengths and thicknesses.
The distance between the first and second curve is different on each one. That will make the handle taller or shorter.

Always use the same handle as a reference for the rest. Otherwise any slight deviations will be multiplied.

[Frosty]

Ryan:

I wasn't being flippant or acting the old timer laughing while the youngun tries to figure out the SEKRETS.

I have no special tricks for doing consistant duplicate pieces. Sure, there are all manner of methods, as all the suggestions posted so far testify and there'll be more to come I'm sure.

The trouble is; none of them will really work till you've done it a bunch of times. Then you get to decide which set of methods works best for you and practice it till it's automatic.

For example, one of my favorite demo pieces is a little leaf coat hook. With a little practice I can forge one out while keeping up a steady patter in about 10-12 mins. I haven't done more than one or two in one day in some years now and the last one took me closer to 20 mins to make.

When I was demoing them I could make any of half a dozen variations in about 6 mins each. Then later, come back and make another three or more for matched sets. About 6 mins each and matched well enough you had to lay them next to each other to see the variation.

If I had my smithy set up and went out tomorrow I'd probably have to make 20-30 leaf coat hooks before I got back even close to speed and consistency.

It takes practice. You have to forge your own edge and then you have to continually hone it to keep it.

I'll do anything I can to help you out and I told you as straight as I know. No secret knowledge, no mystical initiation rites. Smithing is simply knowledge and practice. Nothing more, nothing less, for you, me or anybody who wants to learn the craft.

Frosty

[Ed Thomas]

Frosty: It is not all just practice, in the sense of muscle memory and repetition as you describe. It is forging intelligently and with focus, using tried and true techniques. Not "tricks" but methods to help monitor uniformity.

One of these is marking and measuring the work as you go. Another is comparing the work in progress to a standard, drawn or forged.

The question is a good one and deserves practical solutions, not a condescending pat on the head.

I can teach these things to a beginner and see results very quickly, much as I was taught. Or the beginner can flail around for years on their own and never learn them. There are lots of blacksmith beginners out there who have been forging for decades.

This issue of achieving uniformity is best addressed early and often. Without it, you cannot do even moderately successful joinery in furniture, gates and railings. It is achieved by having a very clear end result, and taking the right steps to get there.

I, too, believe that part of the answer is spending time at the forge. I've gotten in trouble before for saying "practice, practice, practice", but I still believe in it. But practice must be with purpose and focus or it won't improve at all, and can actually do more damage than good.

[mcraigl]

Easily,
No pro/expert here with blacksmithing. Lots of experience with wood and fabbing/welding metals. My suggestion to you are search the BP's for things like "jigs", "measurements", etc. A question... How many "measurements" are there on "your" anvil? I've got a few of mine memorized because they're measurements I use quite a bit. Don't have to stop and grab a tape or ruler. Just hold the stock up there, see where the measurement comes to, and off you go. I've even discovered clever ways of "marking" the stock. If I need to taper 2" of something. If I hold the end even with the offside of the anvil over the hardy I can strike a half faced blow on the offside of the hardy and establish a small easily located shoulder almost exactly at 2". Anyway, my suggestions is to learn your anvil for measurements. Then forge all the pieces through one step or operation. Oh the other thing I do is there's a smallish table on my leg vise stand maybe a 12x16" or something like that. After I forge the first of a series of say the first bend for the handle I trace it on that table with a soapstone. Just another way of checking for uniformity. It's also handy for mirror images of stuff. Anyway, good luck and show us some pix when your done. I just forged my first ever pair of Bavarian Staghorn hinges and this symmetry issue came up for me too.

[Site Admin]

BP0264 Measuring things

Tricks - Measuring
There are some 41 different listings there.

# 0016 Get to know your anvil. Measure the face from heel to front edge. Then to edge of cutting table ( these are length measures ). Also, from working side to near edge of hardie hole, far edge, and to both sides of prichel Numerical measurement not as important as finished goods ( IE how far to draw the end of a piece for a loop ). 4 choices ( both sides of both holes ) gives you much leeway. Then you can repeat as necessary. Easier for me to write down in the book that I need to draw to far side of prichel than to a measurement on a ruler. sog

[easilyconfused]

Thanks for all the replys, and hopefully we can get some more disscussion. I know that some of my biggest thing is practice. I can pump out symmetrical s-hooks and little key ring hooks from nails I gather from my charcoal (too lazy to pull the nails from the boards around the farm so I use a magnet after instead). I've only made 2 other handels (in a different style) and they took me a week of all day forging and they still aren't too symetrical. However, I had never thought about trying to keep consistent working temperatures. It's so simple when it's pointed out to you but when you're in the heat of things, you don't think of it. That could be most of my problem with the bends at the end of the handle, now that I think on it. And if I can get pictures of them, I'll post them. They will just be the "simple" bean end handles.

[HWooldridge]

Something that works well on a Suffolk type or "bean" handle is to neck the material, leaving a blob on the end for the bean. The second process is to draw the bean sideways to the parent stock. The third action is to clamp the bean part in the vise, with the handle in a vertical orientation and right at the juncture of the handle stock. The cross peen is then used to strike just above the bean, which will curve the parent stock and make a very pleasing transition. The other side is then completed in the same way and the piece checked on a flat surface so the height is the same on both ends.

(Almost sounds like a BP session - doesn't it)

[easilyconfused]

That does sound like a good BP. Especially since I'm a little confused about the orientation in the vice. ;)

[Shane Stegmeier]

One of my favorite sayings is: "There are no shortcuts, it takes practice, pratice, pratice... and after you have done a hundred of them they start looking an aweful lot alike;-)

That being said some paths are shorter than others, and it does help to have a good guide... Rather than striking out on your own thinking you can get there just as easily, and why take to long path, when you can see your goal just over there...


Clamp the handle in the vice vertically with the jaws clamped down on just the bean, and take your cross pein, or rounding hammer and set your shoulder. I like to support the top part of the handle with a pair of tongs or my gloved hande if the stock is cool enought to, and pull the handle body so that it stays straight. Try and do this at a yellow heat, or atleast a bright orange/red.

I forge handles out of old farrier's rasps gives the handle a neat visual texture
My wife thinks the finals are too plain and wants me to split them or chisel them to make them a bit more fancy. I am half tempted to cut them so they look like the parsley handle out of Streeter's Professional Smithing;-)

[easilyconfused]

Finally got enough time to finish the handles and mount them on the shed doors.


As for measurments, there was only one that was a bit longer and higher. When I drilled the pilot holes for my square punch, I think there as maybe 1/4" difference total in where the holes sat in the longer one and less than 1/8" height difference. I decided to square punch them and use a carriage head bolt through both handles on the same door since the doors they are on always freeze down and normally, the handles pull off when yanked on. Once again, critique is welcome but I've probably seen what I did wrong already.

[habu68]

Last fall i went to a demo by Peter Ross, and one of his projects was a bean end handle. A few of his pointers were:

1. Set up each step ie: measure, mark, and rough shape the the step. For a leaf it would be a fuller(he used the edge of the anvil) to isolate the end, then a three sided point. the trick here is conservation of mass. Once you have the masses isolated then a flat hammer blow will move the metal in all directions and be limited by the metal available.

2. His next "trick" was in regard to thin stock, he kept the outer edge of the stock thick working from the center of the stock to the edge. This did three things, it conserved his heat at the edge, he was not pushing a thin cold edge away from a larger mass and deforming it, and thirdly if he had to take a second heat he had the mass at the edge that did not burn as easly. On the Bean he worked one side from the center out to the finished edge then he returned the piece to the fire unfinished side down and the thin side out out of the fire, so he could take a high yellow heat on the second side and keep the thin side cooler.

3. Whenever possible finish the step you are working on in one heat. Take small bites, start with a high heat, the first blows are hard and shure, the next few as the metal cools are to adjust the first blows, red heat to remove scale, black to remove hammer marks and smooth the metal. It was almost like watching a bouncing ball with each blow getting lighter and lower to the work. He then returned the next section to the fire working in order across the piece to conserve the heat, not working one end and then the other and then the middle.

He also pointed out that working quickly, with a small hammer and fast heavy blows, that the hammer will produce heat and can move the heat around the piece. By starting with a high heat, fast blows, and working the metal to a black heat finish Master Ross got more work done in one heat, and with fewer tools than anyone I have ever watched.



"I have no respect for any man who can only spell a word one way." Mark Twain