Mr Smith Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 G'day guys! Here's another of my how-tos. I'll do some more, so, If you have any requests, suggestions, let me know. We use this tool at *every* demo - it always gets a good response. Folks want something they can take home with them, that doesn't cost more than loose change ($1AUD = $0.75USD approx), and we're happy to oblige. Glenn : I'm working on a BP for medieval cloak pins. It *should* be in your inbox 'bout this time tomorrow As per usual - comments suggestions,etc to the usual place (me). Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Mick, what are these spoons for? From the pictures they look like doll's furniture... charms or pendants maybe? Keyfobs? I like the idea don't get me wrong at all, just wondered what you told the folks they could use them for. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackers Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 G'day Ian, I'm sure Michael won't mind if I answer your question about our little spoons made from a number 7 horseshoe nail. We make them with a small eye, so they can be hung an a key ring or a necklace etc. At this year's Perth Royal Show (last month), we sold them attached to a key ring for $2 ea. They prove to be very popular. The idea was started by our founder (Jo Mazzarol) several years ago. It takes us about three minutes to make one and most people are quite willing to stand and watch one being made. At $2 ea.they're cheap and many people like to buy something that they've just watched being made. Besides, number 7, horseshoe, they've got to be lucky! Regards, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Aha! Thanks Brian, I could see those being a good little demo seller:D I've made leaves for keyrings or pendants, a little bigger than the horse shoe nail spoon but not much slower to make while someone watches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackers Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Hey Michael, many thanks for posting that excellent little drawing of our spoon jig, well done! If anyone has any more questions or suggestions regarding these spoons, please let us know. Regards, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackers Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Hey Ian, at the Royal Show, I was making small leaves from 8mm. round rod, to hang on key rings. We were trying to sell them for $10 ea. but a lot of people thought our price was a bit too high, so we reduced them to $7 ea. They take me about twenty five minutes to make. I was taught how to make these by Graham Askew, from the Artist Blacksmith's Association of N.S.W. Perhaps you've met him? Cheers, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Yes I have, met him at the Hot Iron Muster at Logan Village, really nice bloke. Showed me the leaves he does as well, very similar to one of the type I do, lot of work with a fairly sharp straight peen to get the texture. I liked them a lot. Also liked the collection of tools he had photo's of, real tool junkie :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 We had a couple of those for auction at the Appalachian Blacksmith Association Fall Conference in October. They were made by a member that said they were great little demo items, especially with children watching. They attached a card that stated a legend about being used in Medievel times by women to measure their spices while cooking. Sounds viable to me! Could we get a better pic of the tooling used to make 'em? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 Sure thing! Any parts of it in particular? I'll take a bunch of shots when I go in Sunday, and post the best :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easilyconfused Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I've also heard that it was for measuring out spice and for good luck. They were a big seller at a renasiance (sp?) fair I was a spectator at. That's the only spot I've seen them made and each one brought in about $2-$5 at the silent auction. Of course it was a charity event, which tends to lubricate tight wallets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 The medieval spices sounds bogus to me----you would use a horn spoon to measure out things like spices, no taste, no rust, easily available, etc. and it's too small for cooking spice measurements. The ammount of truth in stories told at a typical renaissance fair would need a much smaller spoon than that to dip it out! Exp: they heavily used spices to cover the taste of rotten meat---counter that with the expense of spices, some of which were traded for their weight in gold or silver! And what you get is "They spent many times the cost of buying fresh meat to cover the taste of rotting meat" Please don't spread misinformation! Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easilyconfused Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Thomas, you forget that in winter, medieval people relied heavily on hunting and meat was scarce. While peasants, likely did not have much meat and couldn't afford spice, it is known that nobles did use them, and they were rationed due to their expense. Whether they used metal spoons or horn spoons, it's hard to tell. I couldn't find any info on any horn spoons being found. There are numerous examples of silver salt spoons, and iron salt spoons have been found in a 1700 estates. Iron salt spoonMedieval spice prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted November 5, 2006 Author Share Posted November 5, 2006 Here's some more pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 If meat was scare it wouldn't be left to rot, it would be consumed before it went bad. Smoking, salting, drying, storing in honey, etc, there were lots of ways to preserve meat Of course the nobility do not seem to have had a dearth of meat even in the winter if the household accounts that have been studied and published are any guide---where are you getting your information from? The peseants had a much less meat rich diet and I don't think that the winter was very much less than other times---more time to go hunting in the winter than during crop intensive months and meat would store longer in cooler weather. BTW judging medieval times by what was going on in 1700 a lot like saying that in 1700 people were using 4 wheeled drive pickups to travei in cause that what they were doing three hundred years later in 2000 Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 FWIW, As far as I've been told, folks used these tiny spoons, because spices were scarce and therefore expensive. Carving on from horn would be a long process, compared with having one knocked out at the smithy for a groat. As for diet in that time, you only have to look at the names of various meats to get an answer. Bear in mind that the French ran England from 1066. Cow = beef (from the French boeuf) Pig = pork (from the French Porc) Sheep = mutton (from the French moutton) conversely Chicken = chicken lamb = lamb fish = fish I would suggest that, given the above, the peasants (at least in England) would have had a diet containing meat. It would have been the least land, money, and labour expensive. I would also suggest that their immune systems would have been more robust than ours, meaning that what we today would consider bad, might have been eaten with gusto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 What do you do on the long winter nights sitting around the fire? Make things! Why pay a groat when you have the wherewithal to have it free? They used horn extensively---so much so that modern researchers have called it the "medieval plastic" If spices were so expensive you would not want to use an iron spoon but a silver one to avoid contaminating the spice---why pocketknives in the 19th century oft had silver blades for cutting fruit... BTW have you examined many medieval horseshoe nails they would not be suitable to make such spoons from. I have a half dozen books on medieval cooking implements and have not seen a single example of such small spoons being used or referred to. I still think that's a spurious back explanation for a modern item. If you have a good source for documentation please tell me---I'll get a copy! Medieval cooking gear being sort of an interest to me---I've forged pans and pots just cause my area of interest is before cast iron was used for such... Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 Thomas, I'm confused. You've corrected someone else for saying, rightly, that the 17th century was not part of the medieval period, but then you use the 19th century as an example. Then, you go on to say, that the average peasant could not afford meat, or spices, and would balk at paying a negligible amount for a cooking utensil, but then suggest that a similar item made from silver would be fine. The reason for silver knives being used, as you rightly say, is because the acids in many foods corrode iron. It is also the reason why, at fancy banquets and dinners, the ettiquette was to start from the cutlery on the outside of your place setting. The knives on the outside were silver or silver-plated and could deal with the acid. Spices being largely dry, however contain very little acid. I have no trouble accepting that horn spoons *were* used. Long story short -we've had these spoons confirmed as being authentic by local medieval historians, otherwise we wouldn't advertise them as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 The confusion is the mixing of classes---the nobles who could afford expensive spices could afford expensive utinsils---look at Celinni's salt cellar! The peseants didn't. What they had they used horn for. Can you provide me with the contact information for your local historians? And do they specialize in such things? Norm Cantor a world famous medieval historian still let very bogus information on armour in the "Medieval Encyclopedia" he edited---it wasn't his area of interest. I still recommend his book "Inventing the Middle Ages" to people though. I still want to see some hard documentation on them knowing how many times some thing like "well they could have used something like that for spices" goes through a couple of people and then becomes "they did use..." After 28 years in the SCA some of the things *I* have said have come back to me twisted around almost as bad as the reporters manage to. I'd be happy to take this to e-mail; if I'm wrong I can publically eat crow, there is a massive flock of them around the University right now. Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 Thomas, Look, what you are asking is quite absurd. You are asking me to state that we have, in the city of Perth, a local historian who specialises in medieval cutlery, and further specialises in cutlery made from horseshoe nails, otherwise I'm clearly talking out of my hat. I'm not going to do any such thing. You have your 28 years of SCA experience, that's fine. You want to make vague references to "the University", that's fine too. You big Ug, me little Ug. My intention was to provide the members of this site with a tool which is both interesting, adaptable, and (possibly) lucrative. I posted it in response to a direct request for such details from another member. If you don't like the "medieval" overtones, then don't use them. Many objects sold at blacksmithing demos are passed off as "lucky", such as horseshoes, etc. Follow suit. I even gave away a bottle of slack-tub water to a lady at a demo, because she claimed it cured warts! Sell them as lucky spoons! Do whatever you like with them! I described them as "medieval" based on the best information I have. As far as I'm concerned, in the absence of any technical questions, I've exhausted the possibilities of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinny Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Got alive'n there cobber,thank's for all the info on the spoon's and the tooling . I'll have to make one of those gadgets and smarten up my spoon's. sounds like I'll have to add a tag like yours with the yarn and get amonst the drinking silver.bonzer work cobber keep'm comin Dinny keep the iron hot and the tinnies on ice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strine Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 they were great little demo items, especially with children watching I too make these little trinkets when I can find a nail (see below*). But I usually try and spark up a conversation with a litt'lun before I start. I make no mention of what I'm making, i just babble on to the youngster about icecream, What flavour does she/he like, who makes the best etc etc. After the spoon is finished I mention that..."I was talking to your mum earlier and she told me you could eat as much icecream as you like" after the look of astonishment and confusion about the new rule dies down I hand over the spoon... "But you must use this spoon." *Mostly I avoid anything to do with horse shoes leaving that side of forging to the horse chiropodists. That aspect of working hot iron must surely amount to only a tiny percent of the craft yet people see a smith at work and immediately equate what you're doing to the fads and fashions of horse footwear. Many is the time when it is absolutely inconcievable how a horse could wear on his hoof what I am forging, yet little Johnny still is told "Oh look Luv he's making a horseshoe". Next time you see a horse wearing a set of tongs, a spray of gumleaves or or set of barn door hinges on his feet let us know will ya! I'd like to see that Hang in there Smudger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Mr. Smith, Thomas Powers, and Everyone else involved-- I posted the information about what I knew of the spoon with the hope it would give ideas to other fledgling smiths. Thats why I requested some more pictures of the tooling,for my own personal reference. So what if the legend that goes with the item has some fancy to it. If they sell at demos, so be it. Very few people are interested in the true origin of the little spoons, they are buying them for the whimsy or mystique involved! No ones gonna take it home and use it for spices. They probably end up on a keyring, with a new story about how this blacksmith made them in short order while the buyer watched! Imagine that, a century from now there could be an argument on a forum about these details! Let's say you increase the size of the tool to leave an impression about 1" or so, could make a nice spoon for soup I would think. It's all about thinking OUTSIDE THE BOX. Before this turns us all away from one another, let it go, it's not worth the fuss!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 No worries Keykeeper! No apology necessary! I posted this plan up, because until the last six months or so, we had no opportunity to sell things for our own profit. In that six months or so, this simple jig has paid for itself several times over. If folks want more details on it, and want to know more, I'm only too happy to help out. I'd rather take a few minutes to answer questions, than you spend a day making a tool that doesn;t work! We had a bloke turn up at Royal Show time, some five years after buying the original spoon, with it still on their keyring. They show up, looking for the bloke who made it. On the subject of making a bigger spoon, I'm already working on it. Long story short, I brought my lunch in one day, but forgot my spoon. Necessity is the mother of invention, so they say I agree with you, mate.. let it go.. I'll have another plan for us to argue about next week :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primtechsmith Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I like the spoon idea. And will make a few feeble attempts at it myself! Thank you for the pictures, and ideas!!!!! Peyton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Well I see this the same as telling folks "all blacksmiths shod horses". If it's okay to spread uncertain info about the one it's ok about the other. Nothing says you can't make such a dandy item and *not* tell a possibly tall tale about it. Shoot I'd tell them the "For the want of a nail the kingdom was lost" poem and then assure them they would always have a horseshoe nail to hand... Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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