iron woodrow Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 hellow fellow enthusiasts! my name is woody and I've recently (6 months now) come out of my time as an industrial smith in ipswich, queensland, australia. i served my time (4 years) under two massey hammers, a 1cwt and a 5cwt, learned a lot about servicing them, but didnt learn the lot... this is where my frustration begins. Upon arrival at my new place of employ, a sugar mill in far north queensland, i discovered a 5cwt massey in seemingly immaculate condition. i started the machine. it ran beautifully, but trying to put her into low pressure hold up she starts biting and slapping, or multiple blow with foot treadle engaged, she goes to multiple blow alright, but at full blow range! i have, in my eyes, inherited this machine....the original smith has long gone, the company has no idea of its capabilities and the staff have no idea and are somewhat scared of it...except one old boilermaker who has been using it to press right angles.(he incidentally uses it in single blow and leaves it thus upon switching it off! yargh! i am employed in a general cleaning capacity and shouldnt be near the thing, but i cant stay away and think it is a real shame to have her treated so. now, the 1cwt at my old work had an issue where it would start slapping when it had too much oil pumped into the cylinders. but it was an older style, not a clearspace, and had a different valve configuration (i think) could this be the problem, learned smiths? the oil flow WAS quite fast. or could it be something more sinister? has the old boily damaged the valves? any input beyond a vague "yurrrgh" would be of help. thanks, woodrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 Could there be something holding the treadle down? I assume the treadle lock for using the hammer for foot blows is not engaged. I actually leave my hammer in position 1 with the treadle locked down to the foot working position, and start it and stop it this way. The hammer has been run this way its whole life, I know this as a retired blacksmith who stops by my shop frequently worked in the shop when mine came in new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 24, 2010 Author Share Posted July 24, 2010 no, nothing holding it down. even when i use the lever, driver style without engaging the treadle she'll chomp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 ohhhh, my specialised subject for 10 It can be a little tricky to work out the handlever positions in the notches as it is a 'floating quadrant'. The handlever should be in its highest position, with the stop swung out over the top of the footlever for low pressure hold up. I find a piece of rubber matting over the bottom pallet can make 'finding the settings' a lot less stressfull If there is excessive air leakage around the stuffing box this will lead to light hammering when moving the handlever down from neutral (ie it will not 'pick up' from rest, just tap tap tap a bit, then it might lift clear a little before starting to hammer as it comes into work) A healthy hammer will 'pick up' to top of stroke in low pressure hold up in 7 or 8 'pumps' If its not 'blowing' and still wont lift after checking all the handlever positions I would pull the valve out and check for broken or sticking valve plates as a starter. There is also an easy check that the valve is in the right position...... take the 'bell cover' off the top (4 bolts, 2 mins), and move the handlever down into the full work position (fully pressed down). The valve should come flush with the top of the valve tube. Sometimes the top of the valve tube is stamped + 1/8 or minus 1/16" or whatever. thats the valve position in full work (hammer switched off when you do this check, obviously ) The valves are much much more complicated than this one check, but its a good place to start! edit, if the hammer is left running for a long time in either high pressure hold up, or clamp, over a period of time it is possible that the excessive heat build up could 'coke' the oil on the valve, causing the valve plates to stick. not a big job to pull the valve and de-coke it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 24, 2010 Author Share Posted July 24, 2010 what is the "stuffing box" you speak of? ill try taking the bell cover off but, as i said, it has to be an under cover op.....im not supposed to be there....when you say fully pressed down do you mean FULLY PRESSED DOWN or just in the lowest notch? i realise this sounds like a stupid question but i want to do it right, in the most efficient way, to avoid detection.....would it work with a heavy weight on the treadle when engaged? its not blowing, and the 5cwt clearspace i was trained on seemed a lot worse, inside and out. it used to wheeze like an old asthmatic on startup and in nuetral, and used to "knock" when raised quickly on single blow. other than that it worked a breeze, i must have done more than 3500 hrs on it., with no issues at all. this one seems perfect.....even the blocks (original) show barely any signs of wear, no undue noises or taps or knocks,....except for this little issue. upon opening the side plates and looking in i could see the valves seem clean and tidy (to a novice...) im thinking of making an offer on it in its current state.... what is a good starting offer on a fully functional 5wct massey clearspace? and a disfunctional one? thankyou. ohhhh, my specialised subject for 10 It can be a little tricky to work out the handlever positions in the notches as it is a 'floating quadrant'. The handlever should be in its highest position, with the stop swung out over the top of the footlever for low pressure hold up. I find a piece of rubber matting over the bottom pallet can make 'finding the settings' a lot less stressfull If there is excessive air leakage around the stuffing box this will lead to light hammering when moving the handlever down from neutral (ie it will not 'pick up' from rest, just tap tap tap a bit, then it might lift clear a little before starting to hammer as it comes into work) A healthy hammer will 'pick up' to top of stroke in low pressure hold up in 7 or 8 'pumps' If its not 'blowing' and still wont lift after checking all the handlever positions I would pull the valve out and check for broken or sticking valve plates as a starter. There is also an easy check that the valve is in the right position...... take the 'bell cover' off the top (4 bolts, 2 mins), and move the handlever down into the full work position (fully pressed down). The valve should come flush with the top of the valve tube. Sometimes the top of the valve tube is stamped + 1/8 or minus 1/16" or whatever. thats the valve position in full work (hammer switched off when you do this check, obviously ) The valves are much much more complicated than this one check, but its a good place to start! edit, if the hammer is left running for a long time in either high pressure hold up, or clamp, over a period of time it is possible that the excessive heat build up could 'coke' the oil on the valve, causing the valve plates to stick. not a big job to pull the valve and de-coke it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 Well, depending on local demand and the owners perception of it's worth, I'd start out with an offer to remove it for them so the space can be put to better use. Next is scrap value. Be very careful of your own sense of what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 25, 2010 Author Share Posted July 25, 2010 this part of your post eluded me at first glance. yes it is possible if the old boily has been using it as a press, he might have left it for considerable lengths of time...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 27, 2010 Author Share Posted July 27, 2010 hi the number stamped upon the top ring is 0. the slide when the lever is depressed comes level, and everything else is as per normal. put some rubber on the blocks and put her in position, no change. got caught pulling the bell cover off so i dont think ill go near it for a bit... xxxx. may have spoiled my chances...... John N- what would you determine the weight of a 5cwt to be for transport puposes? ill make a bid on it i reckon.....see if they'll take scrap prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 The anvil should go about 2.5 ton, the hammer should go about 5 ton. In NSW if i was selling a 5 I would try to get $5000.00 if I was buying I can normally get them for $2500 (around about) still installed. The hammers get more expensive size for size as they get smaller. Where did you serve your time, Forgebros or the railways? Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Forge brothers, i couldnt get into the qr workshops, served my time and got out. family and personal issues meant i couldnt stay on. i was quite dissapointed that all my smithing training was in house, meaning i didnt get to do practical at qr workshops, or theory at tafe, as promised when i joined. where in nsw are you based? being in a "remote area" ill see if i cant get it for <$2500 still installed eh? thanks for your input, woody. Hi The anvil should go about 2.5 ton, the hammer should go about 5 ton. In NSW if i was selling a 5 I would try to get $5000.00 if I was buying I can normally get them for $2500 (around about) still installed. The hammers get more expensive size for size as they get smaller. Where did you serve your time, Forgebros or the railways? Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I'm in Newcastle (Kurri Kurri actually). I normally go to see the blokes at forge Bros when I am at a loose end with the outlaws in Brisvegas. I always thought it was strange that you guys never went to tafe, seeing as sydney Tafe takes apprentices on block from perth, New Zealand etc but almost never Bris. If you buy it don't forget that the anvil will be the hardest to remove as the base is about the same width (octagonal) as the base of the hammer, and seeing as it has been there a while it may be hard to move. If you want and you get it give us a kooee and I'll give you the good oil on moving them, (I've moved about 7 of them now) Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 If you want and you get it give us a kooee and I'll give you the good oil on moving them I know that's probably a normlish statement... I still find it very interesting.. I think Im going to try and use "I'll give you the good oil" in a conversation and see what kind of response I get.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 If you want and you get it give us a kooee and I'll give you the good oil on moving them I know that's probably a normlish statement... I still find it very interesting.. I think Im going to try and use "I'll give you the good oil" in a conversation and see what kind of response I get.. If you`re fixin` to do anythin` ya gotta have the "good oil" if you want things to slide into place with no problems,slicker than deer guts on a doorknob.I hear it works better than even goose grease.Hard tellin`,not knowin`. Havin` the good oil will make you happier than a dead hog in the sunshine! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 xxxx yanks pinch all our good sayings, you watch, "go you big red fire engine" will be the next Aussie saying to go global. Oh it already did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 That's nothing; they've pinched our entire language! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 That's nothing; they've pinched our entire language! We're all learning to speak Spanish now! Next we'll all need to learn Chinese! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 We're all learning to speak Spanish now! Next we'll all need to learn Chinese! keep trying to learn Italian myself, absolutely love the country but I guess I still struggle with English Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 31, 2010 Author Share Posted July 31, 2010 I'm in Newcastle (Kurri Kurri actually). I normally go to see the blokes at forge Bros when I am at a loose end with the outlaws in Brisvegas. I always thought it was strange that you guys never went to tafe, seeing as sydney Tafe takes apprentices on block from perth, New Zealand etc but almost never Bris. If you buy it don't forget that the anvil will be the hardest to remove as the base is about the same width (octagonal) as the base of the hammer, and seeing as it has been there a while it may be hard to move. If you want and you get it give us a kooee and I'll give you the good oil on moving them, (I've moved about 7 of them now) Phil coo-EE! you reckon you could splash some of that good oil over my way now? just a few wise words on the dismantling and transport of this bugger. i dont want to go into this negotiation half cocked, as it were. i want to show this bloke that im the man to take it off his hands. i dont want him to think im coming the raw prawn eh? thanks mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 coo-EE! you reckon you could splash some of that good oil over my way now? just a few wise words on the dismantling and transport of this bugger. i dont want to go into this negotiation half cocked, as it were. i want to show this bloke that im the man to take it off his hands. i dont want him to think im coming the raw prawn eh? thanks mate. I just love listening to Aussie banter, pure poetry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Used to be popular to use French words, but now even that's passé! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Used to be popular to use French words, but now even that's passé! Is that the same France that one of the Bushs said had no word for "entrepreneur"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Oui, oui! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted August 1, 2010 Author Share Posted August 1, 2010 Oui, oui! OI! blokes this isnt a lingual discussion on the good old days of the english language! i am looking for genuine advice, not an old fogies look at chaucers great works..... :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 Hey woody Have you got hold of the sucker yet or not, theres 2 hammers in the latest plant and equipment mag a 2 and a 7 both are asking $15000 or so, bit over priced for where they are (Tas and WA). I have a piece I was writing for a blacksmiths mag on removing my 5cwt, I'm trying to find it. What sort of equipment do you have to remove this hammer, is it in a high roofed workshop or not, give me some idea of what you have to remove it, where it is, do you have access to a forklift, can you get some helpers, do you have any jacks, packing timber etc. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted August 4, 2010 Author Share Posted August 4, 2010 Hey woody Have you got hold of the sucker yet or not, theres 2 hammers in the latest plant and equipment mag a 2 and a 7 both are asking $15000 or so, bit over priced for where they are (Tas and WA). I have a piece I was writing for a blacksmiths mag on removing my 5cwt, I'm trying to find it. What sort of equipment do you have to remove this hammer, is it in a high roofed workshop or not, give me some idea of what you have to remove it, where it is, do you have access to a forklift, can you get some helpers, do you have any jacks, packing timber etc. Phil thanks phil, i havent got the hammer yet, im trying to sort out the logistics in my head before i go to see the big boss.... i have, or can gain access to, a forklift, backhoe, jacks, trucks and helpers. it only needs to be moved 10 kms or so, and it is going from a high roofed shed to a shed with an overhead crane (for temporary storage..). id love to see that article, but dont kill yourself trying to find it. thanks woody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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