chichi Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I posted a question about welding high carbon to a frizzen and got several knowledgable replies. It seemed like they all had experience so I would like to know if anyone has worked on other lock parts including making an entire lock? I have forged the springs, bridle,pan,cock frizzen,sear, and turned the tumbler on a lathe and am almost ready for assembly. Any advice or comments would be appreciated. If someone has done the whole enchilada,I would love to PM to share experience. If there is a web site on making a lock, that would be wonderful to know too. Thanks, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 When I was making gun locks there was no internet, no PC, hard to believe I know. Sounds like you got it all under control so what else do you want to know? :huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarttrost Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Dunno if it's any help but you may want to have a look at this: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted March 19, 2010 Author Share Posted March 19, 2010 When I was making gun locks there was no internet, no PC, hard to believe I know. Sounds like you got it all under control so what else do you want to know? I would like to hear about the process from someone who has done a lock.I have not found anything on the internet about making a complete lock from scratch. I believe my pieces are all pretty good and fit decently ,but getting it all together so that it sparks still looms. I have not cut the tumbler notches yet and wonder how to shape them and the nose of the sear.How much tension should there be on the frizzen spring.Should the frizzen provide a strong resistance to the hammer or is the spring for the frizzen just to keep the frizzen down so that it covers the pan and the powder in which case little tension is needed? How do I know where to drill the tumbler shaft hole relative to frizzen/pan? The cock has to strike the frizzen but is there an optimal angle or point at which the cock/flint and frizzen meet. When I position the frizzen, should it almost touch the raised part at the front of the pan or should it just cover the groove that holds the priming powder etc.,etc.. ? Does the bolster on the inside of the cock stop the downward motion of the cock ? I have gone to many muzzleloading sites and the only discussions I see discuss how reliable Siler locks are or whether the locks are correct historically for a particular rifle. No one seems to be making / discussing locks from scratch.I appreciate any advice you care to give. Thanks, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 Sure wish I could be more help Bob but I've never made a fire arm. If I recall The Art of Blacksmithing by Alex Bealer had a section on gunsmithing but I have no idea how complete or accurate it is. This thread is going to get pretty darned interesting if I'm not mistaken. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted March 19, 2010 Author Share Posted March 19, 2010 Sure wish I could be more help Bob but I've never made a fire arm. If I recall The Art of Blacksmithing by Alex Bealer had a section on gunsmithing but I have no idea how complete or accurate it is. This thread is going to get pretty darned interesting if I'm not mistaken. Frosty the Lucky. Frosty, I hope you are correct about this thread getting interesting. For some reason, I have not gotten many replies to similar requests. I was inspired by the Gunsmith of Williamsburg video which showed a young Wallace Gussler make a beautiful long rifle. I cannot do the art he did but no reason I cannot do a decent smithing job.I saw the video 20 years ago and said I would ,someday, give it a try. I recently cut back at work and decided to start. I have other projects that will take away time in good weather , but I still plan to prove to myself that mere mortals can do a decent job.All of the books and videos describe the process after you buy a lock and barrel. I want to do it from scratch,as the saying goes-lock,stock,and barrel. Thanks for the reply. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 Dang, you sure got a lot of questions! It has been a very long time since I made my locks, 1976. I had an old Brown Bess lock that I copied for the internals and I cast the lock plate out of brass with the pan integral with it. There used to be a very good organization, National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, and they had a two part series on blacksmithing your own lock in their magazine called Muzzle Blasts, that is the main way I made my other smaller locks. On the Brown Bess I forged and fiddled with the frizzen until it covered the pan tight so the priming powder didn't fall out, the spring was fairly stiff and so was the main spring that drove the hammer down. I made all internal parts out of tool steel and did a heat treat and drew a temper so that none of the notches would break off, no going off half cocked, made the main spring too(had a few break, too hard). I fooled and fiddled around a lot to get things right, I didn't get much right the first time through but kept trying. I made some under hammer boot pistols, and interesting simple lock. The only lock I have left is an experimental match lock in brass, man is it slow to set the charge off. Got to hold the gun still for two minutes before it all goes off. BOOM! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukellos Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 The only thing I have done is springs and a frizzen. I didn't weld hi-carb onto the frizzen but made it from mild and case-hardened it. If you can get a copy of THE FOXFIRE BOOKS, I THINK it was Vol 5. It shows the making of a muzzleloader from scratchFoxfire 5, 1979, Anchor. ISBN 0-385-14308-7 . AMAZON.COM has them. If you want to look first, then buy, check your local library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 there is a series of books on this . i have the first volume its called journal of historical armsmakeing technology its published by western kentucky university and the nmlra . it should help with the questions .. i havnt gotten to the point your at yet but that is on my to make one of these days list... good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilikilt Posted March 20, 2010 Share Posted March 20, 2010 Hey there I would go onto the www.muzzleloadingforum.com and contact a guy with the user name "Wulf". He makes some AMAZING locks all from scratch, Snaphauns, flintlocks, miquelet, Baltic sledge locks....all sorts of really fantastic stuff. HE is the guy you should talk to on this subject. Here are some examples of his work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted March 20, 2010 Author Share Posted March 20, 2010 there is a series of books on this . i have the first volume its called journal of historical armsmakeing technology its published by western kentucky university and the nmlra . it should help with the questions .. i havnt gotten to the point your at yet but that is on my to make one of these days list... good luck! Thanks for the tip. I do have a mentor that lives 5 hours away and we have exchanged e mails. He pointed me to the armsmaking tecnology books. I had to beg and cajole the NMLRA for a copy of vol 2 which is dedicated to lockmaking. They now sell a xerox copy . They have only one original left.There are easier ways to do some things differently than described in the book,at least for me, but the book has been invaluable re forging and making dies and a must have. A few things in the Gunsmith of Williamsburg have also been very helpful. I dont know much but contact me if you need some help .I will try my best. Regards, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted March 20, 2010 Author Share Posted March 20, 2010 Dang, you sure got a lot of questions! It has been a very long time since I made my locks, 1976. I had an old Brown Bess lock that I copied for the internals and I cast the lock plate out of brass with the pan integral with it. There used to be a very good organization, National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, and they had a two part series on blacksmithing your own lock in their magazine called Muzzle Blasts, that is the main way I made my other smaller locks. On the Brown Bess I forged and fiddled with the frizzen until it covered the pan tight so the priming powder didn't fall out, the spring was fairly stiff and so was the main spring that drove the hammer down. I made all internal parts out of tool steel and did a heat treat and drew a temper so that none of the notches would break off, no going off half cocked, made the main spring too(had a few break, too hard). I fooled and fiddled around a lot to get things right, I didn't get much right the first time through but kept trying. I made some under hammer boot pistols, and interesting simple lock. The only lock I have left is an experimental match lock in brass, man is it slow to set the charge off. Got to hold the gun still for two minutes before it all goes off. BOOM! Bent iron, My questions were illustraive of the things I would ask an experienced lockmaker. I suspect some of the questions are not critical. I have a partial lock that I got off ebay from which I copy for locations and size of parts.Gussler seems to do his work by eyeball to some extent. I suppose once you understand all of the steps, it can be done that way. Sounds like you have quite a bit of experience. I have used mild steel for my parts except for the high carbon weld on the frizzen. I made dies for the top jaw, bolster and sear. Fairly crude but expedient.The cock is a fun forging project. I had a hard time getting the lower jaw the size I wanted because it requires a lot of upsetting. I improved as soon as I saw Gussler on the video. You are right about a lot of fiddling around. I have also made multiples of each part for back ups and to learn the process.I forge brazed the pan to the plate.An integral pan seemed a little daunting. Do you recall the article in Muzzle Blasts? I am now an NMLRA member so I might be able to get a back issue. Thanks for your comments. You accomplished a pretty challenging project in 1976. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted March 20, 2010 Author Share Posted March 20, 2010 Hey there I would go onto the www.muzzleloadingforum.com and contact a guy with the user name "Wulf". He makes some AMAZING locks all from scratch, Snaphauns, flintlocks, miquelet, Baltic sledge locks....all sorts of really fantastic stuff. HE is the guy you should talk to on this subject. Here are some examples of his work This is the message I was hoping for. Thanks so much. I am going to that site as soon as I finish here. Wulf's locks are beautiful.He really is an artist. Thanks again, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 20, 2010 Share Posted March 20, 2010 Thanks for the tip. I do have a mentor that lives 5 hours away and we have exchanged e mails. He pointed me to the armsmaking tecnology books. I had to beg and cajole the NMLRA for a copy of vol 2 which is dedicated to lockmaking. They now sell a xerox copy . They have only one original left.There are easier ways to do some things differently than described in the book,at least for me, but the book has been invaluable re forging and making dies and a must have. A few things in the Gunsmith of Williamsburg have also been very helpful. I dont know much but contact me if you need some help .I will try my best. Regards, Bob I have all five volume's it Vol 1 that covers locks not 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted March 20, 2010 Author Share Posted March 20, 2010 I have all five volume's it Vol 1 that covers locks not 2 Jim Bob, Thanks for the correction. Sorry, my memory is not what it used to be. How do you like the other volumes. Are they as detailed as vol1 re making parts from scratch? Is there a source for all of the other volumes? I will check the NMLRA site again. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 20, 2010 Share Posted March 20, 2010 Jim Bob, Thanks for the correction. Sorry, my memory is not what it used to be. How do you like the other volumes. Are they as detailed as vol1 re making parts from scratch? Is there a source for all of the other volumes? I will check the NMLRA site again. Bob vol 1 is all about locks and the tools and jigs to make them all sorts of neat cuters Vol 11 two Virginia rifles as documents and traditions shop tools, processes and tech The golden mean proportion in Baroque and Rococo Firearms Design A Patch box release mechanism A Barrel Crowning tool Making and using a Scratch-Stock for forearm molding Vol 111 Handwork and Artifice Summarized essay seven, parts five and six "the gunmaker and the Gunstocker" Sprengel Berlin 1771 translated by Maria von Nicolai and John Bivins (German on the left and English on the right) Vol 1V handwerk und kunsie in Tabellen the Gunfactory A Study of Lock timing A Wheellock Mainspring Vise Vol V rifle making workmanship ...a rifle by John Sheetz Charcoal Bluing of rifle Barrels Cock Forging ..A study in Technology Ramrod and walking stick tool Vol 1 is packed with informationon making locks more than any other book I've seen . I bought my books from the NMLRA back in the '90's I have seen them from time to time on EBAY ...you might try one of the used book sellers to fine a copy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Where was all this information when I was making locks. Sometime I would xerox a copy of a picture of a lock out of a library book to get an idea of how the danged thing went together. These were the big coffee table art books of engraved fancy rich man locks so they showed both sides, that way I could file all the parts to the size of the copy and then fiddle and fuss with them. Somehow mine just weren't as pretty. I regret the day I was talked out of Muzzle Blasts magazines but I was downsizing at the time and something had to go and it was five years of that magazine and twenty years of American Rifleman. Sometime in your life you ought to hand bore and rifle a barrel, you'll feel like you walked a hundred miles before you're finished. Show us your lock when you get it finished, all of us would be pleased to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I was a member for about 30 years or so; I down sized last year when I retired...your right about Muzzleblast It at times had a lot of good information. its too bad that the powers that be can't see the gold mine they have and publish the articles from the past muzzleblast ... as a side note I found a book seller on the net who had all five copies for $105.00 each ($525.00 total) I know thats ten times what I paid back when I bought them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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