curves in gates?

[Bwilloughby]

I have been pondering on a new line of work, as I have grown tired of electronics.

I have found that I am sincerely interested in entry way and drive way gates.
my question is, that is fairly heavy guage stock, how are they able to put custom arches and bends in some of that steel? is it a shop bender tool?

http://www.shopoutfitters.com/index.html
http://www.hossfeldbender.com/
or is it done somehow by hand, press, or someother way.

[irnsrgn]

its done by a company with an expensive roller that they can dignify the purchase by the amount of use and also custom work

[Bwilloughby]

So if the time ever came that I needed something like that I would have to order it from said company?

Not tthat I am even at that stage yet, I am mearly courious as to how they do that with that size material.

I will be starting with hand made stuff.

[Ed Thomas]

Bruce:

Most bending for forged architectural work doesn't lend itself to using that sort of tool. A single bend or scroll is almost always done freehand. For several parts that need to match closely, usually we'll make a jig. The typical tools are a bending fork (which you will make yourself) and a hardy tool that looks like a short stubby tuning fork (which you will also make yourself). Or I put a 'U' shaped piece of spring steel in the vise. For gate -sized elements, most of the bending will be done hot.

Gates are a very complex undertaking. Even simple garden gates are a challenge if you make them well.

It is tough to appreciate all that goes into a gate just by looking at pictures. If you can find a good forged railing or gate to study, a lot of stuff gets much clearer.

It is a pretty big step from firing up your first forge and making a good hook to building architectural ironwork.

[Bwilloughby]

I understand that its a giant leap from never having forged to setting sights on architectural work, but one does need a goal to shoot for.

I will hold true to learning my way around a shop, hammer control and all that is involved in being a true Artistic Blacksmith. I do apologize for asking such questions having never touched a pair of tongs or flattened a peice of steel with a hammer.

I suppose after once I have witnessed first hand at Madison what this is all about I will have a better understanding of how and why things in Blacksmithing need to be done in certain orders. I guess I am just excited about starting a new craft and meeting new people.

[Strine]

Crawl...Walk...Sprint..., is pretty much how I see the road ahead for you BW. Don't get me wrong it's an interesting track with plenty of challenges along they way. And I for one would like to hear how you're travelling from time to time.

[anon_smith]

Well, since no one else would give you a much of a specific answer, I guess I have to. The two most common ways to make the big bends are:

1. Using an acorn table with various stops in it.

2. Building a "quick" jig that you've tacked, clamped, or bolted to your layout table.

[Tom Stovall]

I have been pondering on a new line of work, as I have grown tired of electronics.

I have found that I am sincerely interested in entry way and drive way gates.
my question is, that is fairly heavy guage stock, how are they able to put custom arches and bends in some of that steel? is it a shop bender tool?

http://www.shopoutfitters.com/index.html
http://www.hossfeldbender.com/
or is it done somehow by hand, press, or someother way.

The bends in the heavy material commonly used arches and archways one sees in gates and entranceways are seldom done in house.

For me, bending 11g 3/4" square tubing for a firescreen or garden gate accurately is a difficult proposition - but I can do it. On the other hand, bending the stock I use to frame my gates (1 1/2" schedule 40 black pipe or 2" 11g square tubing) accurately is impossible to do in house. Fortunately, all one needs do is figure out the radius of each bend, then use the yellow pages to find a pipe bending company. Any pipe bending company will have the specialized benders and rollers necessary to bend pipe and tubing accurately.

For examples of hand bends, see the firescreens pages on my website; for examples of bends made with industrial rollers, see the gate pages.

[sandpile]

TOM: I went through your site and enjoyed it. Nice stuff, well made and very reasonably priced.

Good job on site and good work.

Chuck

[Ed Thomas]

Tom: All of the forged architectural railing and gating I know of HAS been done in house. I worked in a modest shop and we never farmed out anything to be bent. Even the fabricating shop nearby did all it's own bending. A hydraulic press or good sized fly press has no trouble at all forming long easy curves in solid stock, even cold. Gentle curves in tubing is fairly easy stuff also. Though I haven't done as much of that, I have found that with patience and attention, you can guide tubing any way you want (within reason).

I suppose there could be some benefit to farming out fabricated stuff, but I think what Bruce asked about was the elegant forged work, which is usually solid stock.

Bruce: There are a zillion ways to bend things, depending size, depth of curve, and the need for repeatability. It seems like everything in the shop comes to bear at some time or another for bending... from the anvil and hammer, to pulleys, vises, layout tables, hydraulic jacks... you name it.

[Bwilloughby]

Thanks guys!
Thasa lota information I really appreciate it.

Madison was a great time. Phil is good at showing how to's and keep things interesting. (*coughs* not a beginner) we were the last ones at the forge from the morning class, everyone else split 45mins before we did. Phil showed me how to make two diffrent types of hooks, and we made a Coal rake with a twist in it.

I bought several tongs, a hot cut hardie, and got a hammer as a gift.
I got a chance to meet alot of great people and see ALOT of great work.

I am now putting the finishing touches on my temp forge, (pics will come soon)

I got a few weeks till July and moving day hits So I will spend most of that in practice.

[R.Smith]

Some more options are:

Bolt an Enerpac hydraulic pump or similar hydraulic cylinder unit to the top of your layout table and form across bolsters. (This would require you to have a fairly sturdy layout table)

Buy a cheapo hydraulic pipe bender from the local cheap tool store. (you can make your own dies for square stock.

Make friends with someone who has a rolling machine.

[Tom Stovall]

Tom: All of the forged architectural railing and gating I know of HAS been done in house. I worked in a modest shop and we never farmed out anything to be bent. Even the fabricating shop nearby did all it's own bending. A hydraulic press or good sized fly press has no trouble at all forming long easy curves in solid stock, even cold. Gentle curves in tubing is fairly easy stuff also. Though I haven't done as much of that, I have found that with patience and attention, you can guide tubing any way you want (within reason).

I must've missed the part about "forged" in the original posters message, I was under impression the gentleman simply wished to know how bends in driveway gates, especially arches, are formed.

Since I specialize in illustrated gates, firescreens, and signage, I delineated the methods I use. As advertised, I bend the little stuff in house, but I use 2" 12 gage square and 1 1/2" schedule 40 black pipe to frame my gates and that stuff goes to a commercial bender for bending because sending it out is the most efficient method of found of doing it - and efficiency directly affects my bottom line. I don't worry overmuch about how such bends are formed in the traditional manner, I do this stuff for a living and don't have time to genuflect to the Great God of Tradition.

I utilize arcs of various sizes quite frequently in my gate and entranceway designs, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to use an inherently inefficient and inaccurate technology, such as a press, to form those arcs. Instead, I have those bends formed on a hydraulic pinch roller that's guaranteed accurate to within 1/16" because that is unquestionably the most efficient means of doing it. Since I build only 12 - 15 gates yearly, it would not be cost effective for me to spend upwards of $15k for such a machine, but I require such accuracy to properly execute my designs.

I don't do mortise and tenon joinery in my gates either, but I do use a traditional TIG welder. :lol:

[Ed Thomas]

Tom: I'd really like to let that go, but I can't. The problem I have with your methods is that they are fabricating solutions on a blacksmith board. I appreciate good welding and fabricating, but it is not forging. There are plenty of forums available for explaining good fabricating techniques. Since this is the "blacksmithforum", I feel fairly strongly that the first tools to be proposed here should be forging solutions. The fact that you choose to weld instead of mechanically join is fine, but I don't think it is appropriate to imply that it is the better solution. It is just a different solution with a different look and result. To get true forged results, you must forge. And that is what this part of the forum specifically is for.

If you choose to send your parts out to be bent, fine. But that is a fabricating solution. Forging and bending and joining gate parts is quite routine in any blacksmith shop.

[Strine]

Here Here, Ed

[Kowalsky]

Enough.
The question asked was

"how are they able to put custom arches and bends in some of that steel? is it a shop bender tool?"

Not how it was done using only blacksmith tools?

Tom Stovall gave the answer as to how he did it in his shop.
He and anyone else will be treated with respect on my watch.

This is the end of it, replys may be given in this thread on how it is done and that is it.

Do I make myself clear. (this is a statement, not a question)

Kowalsky

Moderator

[mike-hr]

I hate to use the 'F'-word on this forum, but i must propose that any full time smith that doesn't 'F'-abricate, or use the best technology available, must have a wealthy spouse. I know smiths who do work in the traditional style. They get a thousand dollars a foot for railings, have three phase power, lathes, mills, air hammers, etc. They are clustered around big metro areas, and live with heavy traffic, crime etc. so they can do their thing.
I live in a community with a population of around 40,000 in a 50 mile circle. In the last 6 years, I've landed 'one' riveted interior railing, and 'one' upset square corner yard gate. I have to live with welding frames together and schmucking in forged pickets with a squirt gun.
I don't feel like I'm any less of a smith than anyone else. I just don't have as many $2 million homes in my area as the folks i truly respect, and have to use electricity in accordance with the budget of the customer.
I fabricated a very nice estate driveway gate about 10 years ago, before I found blacksmithing. The top was a double french curve out of 1/2 x 2 flatbar. I did it by marking off 2 inch increments, using the H-press in a 3 point set-up, and a dial indicator so each push was the same. It took all day for two pieces, I wish i could have had it rolled....

[mike-hr]

Sorry Kowalsky, I guess i was posting the same time you were moderating... feel free to burn my post if you wish!

[Strine]

I'm terribly sorry Mr Kowalsky for adding my two bobs worth. Consider this my last two bobs worth on the matter.

[Kowalsky]

Sorry Kowalsky, . feel free to burn my post if you wish!

No need Mike, it is well within my tolerances

Kowalsky
Moderater

[R.Smith]

Mr Smith?
What part of enough didn't you understand?

Comment has been deleted by moderator

[R.Smith]

post deleted by Moderator.

[Peter Wright]

I have found that I am sincerely interested in entry way and drive way gates. My question is, that is fairly heavy guage stock, how are they able to put custom arches and bends in some of that steel? Is it a shop bender tool, or is it done somehow by hand, press, or someother way?

The original question was "How are they able to put custom arches and bends in steel that is fairly heavy guage stock?"

Please feel free to chime in and answer the question with your choice of favorites. As Glenn says, put it in a blueprint and we can all learn. Fabricators can learn blacksmithing techniques, and blacksmiths can learn fabricator techniques. If there are other techniques to bend custom arches, please let us know. Bwilloughby will have to choose which technique is best for his situation.

The site encourages the exchange of information, and encourages questioning a technique or process for better understanding. Shake hands, smile, and let us get to bending custom arches. Bwilloughby said he is sincerely interested in learning, and has chosen us to assist him. He therefore deserves our best efforts.

Peter Wright, Moderator

[Tom Stovall]

My apologies to this forum if my comments have engendered any controversy, that was certainly not my intention.

To address the orignal poster's question, it should be pointed out that the vast majority of garden and entranceway gates, whether custom or mass produced, are fabricated from hollow goods, primarily due to weight considerations. For this reason, tubing and pipe - hollow goods - are the most common starting materials, at least for the framework.

Although weight mandates the use of hollow goods in most gates, most bends are done in stock that has relatively thick walls because thin walls tend to kink, or flatten excessively, along the inner radius. Furthermore, due to the difficulty intrinsic to heating and handling longer workpieces, most bends in hollow goods are done cold, a fact that blurs any distinction between forging and fabricating.

The most simple method of forming a radius in tubing or pipe is to anchor one end, then force the other around a mandrel. A mandrel can be anything with the desired radius capable of withstanding the pressure of having the workpiece bent around it. The various mechanical and hydraulic benders found in most shops fall into this category, but most cannot form longer radiuses with a single bend and must be used incrementally to form a radius in longer stock. For this reason, most benders are relaively inefficient in terms of both accuracy and time management.

For longer bends in hollow stock, I use a compass to soapstone the desired radius atop a steel layout table, forge a mandrel from 1/2" x 1 1/2" to match the radius, weld it securely to the layout table, weld an anchor on one end of the mandrel to hold it in place, place one end of the workpiece between the anchor and the mandrel, then use a cheater pipe and smooth, even, people-power pressure on the free end of the workpiece in order to force it around the radius formed by the mandrel. This method is labor intensive and time consuming to set up, but it is satisfactory for turning out multiples of a single radius in hollow goods. Many of the radiuses in my screens are formed in this manner.

As an aside, it is sometimes necessary to form an edgewise radius in flat bar stock to match the radius one has formed in hollow stock. (e.g., when fabricating a secondary frame) Should this become necessary, it is easiest done hot and around the same mandrel one uses to form the radius in the hollow stock because it is maddening and extremely time consuming to exactly match a long radius in light bar stock using only a forge, hammer and anvil. :D

[anon_smith]

Hmmmmm, where to start.....,

First off, I guess I should say a little about my background, I trained under John Allgood and Peter Ross at Colonial Williamsburg. I started my own blacksmithing business, and later expanded that into welding fabrication and repair, and yes, I have been to welding school.

That said, I don't believe in subcontracting anything out, and I don't think I can ever remember doing it. My philosophy was that if I needed a tool for a job, and I thought I'd get more work that would employ that tool, I'd bite the bullet and go ahead and buy it.

I have a friend that does a lot of fabricated gates and railings. He tries to include as many forged elements as possible (as the customer is willing to pay for). He's a one man shop and he went out and bought a bender for doing box tubing and pipe. If this is the kind of work you do, the bender pays for itself in a relatively short time.

But, you don't necessarily need a bunch of high dollar tools if you work carefully. Take a look at this gate another friend of mine made:


http://www.forgemagic.com/bsgview.php?photo=411&cat=&by=Lonesome%20Pine

You know how he made those long, graceful curves in the top? he bent it between two trees. He bent the first one the way he wanted it, then carefully bent the others to match.

But this is just my opinion, I'm a beginner myself.