John Martin Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Yupp, forging by hand is hard but fun. It's how I make all of my damascus as I have no mechanical helper yet. Yupp, just thermocycle after you forge them and then you can HT to whatever you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Wow most of my BSB&PS billets are just wired together with 2 or 3 pieces of baling wire---lets any crud inside get outside easily during welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Wow most of my BSB&PS billets are just wired together with 2 or 3 pieces of baling wire---lets any crud inside get outside easily during welding. Yah for some reason I got a little tig happy. I think my concern was that they would just pull apart and fall into the fire and ruin everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 If you just weld up the ends you can get a "fun" situation where the outside layers heat up first, expand and bow out letting crap in. if you leave 1 or more ends "free" they can expand without bowing, or if they bow you can tap them back flat easily. The size of the billet should be sized to the forge; I've worked 3" x 1/2" x 21 layers and also 1' x 1.5" x 21 layers using different forges (and a 50# powerhammer for the large stuff!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Yupp, forging by hand is hard but fun. It's how I make all of my damascus as I have no mechanical helper yet. Yupp, just thermocycle after you forge them and then you can HT to whatever you like. Dumb question here. How exactly do I thermocycle? Then do I just quench in oil after soaking it in the right heat? What kinda quenching medium should I use for hacksaw/bandsaw blades and steel strapping? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Stegmeier Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) I doubt your doing anything wrong, my welded on handles generally come off midway through the forging process;-) Properly sized tongs (how heavily built, and suitably long), properly fitted to the material, preferably with a tong clip so I don't have to hold the material in the tongs, just with them;-) are a beautiful thing. As for the arc welds on the end of the billet, you will tend to get better more consitant patterns if you cut the muddy ends off. You just seem to constantly be loosing material when you do patternwelding, scale loss, trimming the ends, grinding to check welds, grinding to true up the billet, possibly grinding to develop the pattern, more forging and scale loss, more grinding, then forge the item, then more grinding to expose the pattern.... I think what he was pointing out was that, forging big fat damascus billets by hand is a lot of work... But there is no guarentee that the steels you choose were goint to weld up very well??? Power hacksaw blades? I have a billet sitting behind or under the workbench that I have never gotten around to trying, and if you didn't mix some other types of steels in you might not get much patterning for all your hard work anyway, just some decarb lines between the layers??? It's just time, energy and sweat... OOPS didn't read the second page of posts;-) Edited October 22, 2009 by Fionnbharr (finn:-) didn't read the second page of posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 usualy on large stock a tong end is forged ,using shingling tongs ,to enable lighter tongs to be used . working under hammers a pr of tongs should be a good fit and only clipped on when the job has been brought up to heat ,fire tongs should be always used in the fire ,on heavy work you should lay the tongs you are going to use under the hammer on the fire to take the chill of them. A pr of tongs slipping or clips coming loose give some warning and the hammer can be stopped to ajust them ,with a weld there isnt as mutch warning ,for the class of work you seem to be working with forging say a 1/2 ins sq tong end and spend a little time making a pr of hollow bit tongs to be a nice fit ,and use a pr of fire tongs that you can let get red back to the rivet.Blacksmiths used to use tongs all the time and became adept with them ,farriers get very good , using tongs takes the jarr out of the job, and makes a smart workman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 check out the woop tongs in the bp's maded by Uri hofi. they are a good design for handling large stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 The really important thing is not whether you use tongs or a bar. The important thing is to hold the work so it doesn't escape when you're forging it. I use both methods, though most of the time I am set up to use tongs. What I will do is weld a short bar to larger stock to serve as a tong hold. For example, Sunday afternoon I forged a 4x4x8 block into a sqaure taper for a square horn to replace the heel of an anvil that broke off. I welded a piece of 1" round to the end of the block since I don't have tongs for 4" square. It worked beautifully. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Just to confuse things I often weld on a small stub (say 3/4" sq x 2" long) and hold onto that with the tongs! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Avadon, post pictures once you get those billets made! Thermalcycling comes down to what you are going to do with the billets, and how you have gotten best results with your method. Tinker around a bit with normalizing and shrinking the grain if your going with blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 Thanks all.. now i got them on handles.. I'm not saying these are going to be pretty but just a learning experience. And no they are not damascus, they are equal types of steel welded up so I can practice getting good forge welds and working billets. Thought it would be cheaper this way then playing around with expensive steels before I felt comfortable working them. If I make anything cool out of them i'll definitely post some pics Thanks all for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 **** UPDATE***** Well I fired up the coal forge and started working two items separately of course. Boy it didn't take long to realize that forge welding welded up steel like this and drawing it out is not only a ton of work but also requires baby sitting the piece. The first one I worked was a bunch of hacksaws welded up to about 5/8's x 5/8's by 10" and I wasn't watching it close enough and the brake drum forge melted it into two. I only have one tong right now so I didn't even bother tryinig to forge weld it back together. The second one was out of 1" bandsaw blades and the same darn thing happened to that one, it got too hot during the forge welding and I lost about 1/3rd of it. I continued to work that piece though and I was able to forge weld it all the way through and also cut it in half, forge weld it together and then start drawing it out. But boy what a lot of work just to do one fold. I can see why power hammers were invented. Even with a 5lb sledge it just was a lot of metal to move even with bright orange/yellowish heat. One question I had is what would be a good two hand sledge to use on one of the bigger drawing-out jobs. Can I just use any old hardware store two hand sledge? I felt kinda foolish that I made so many of these at first, but in hindsight i'm really glad i'm practicing with freebies I got from strapping, bandsaw blades, etc. and not with expensive toolsteels. I would have been really miffed if I just wasted a bunch of steel that I thought I was going to draw into pattern welded damascus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Forge welding billets can humble a smith pretty quick; especially in a coal forge. In general if I am doing a billet I am doing *NOTHING* *ELSE* not even answering questions! Sledge: just get one with a nicely dressed face; you may want to rocker it if you only want to draw with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Forge welding billets can humble a smith pretty quick; especially in a coal forge. In general if I am doing a billet I am doing *NOTHING* *ELSE* not even answering questions! Sledge: just get one with a nicely dressed face; you may want to rocker it if you only want to draw with it. Thanks Thomas, By "Rockering" do you mean angle the face so it pushes the metal with each blow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I believe he means make it like a very slight fuller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Clad Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Most store-bought hammers are crowned on the hammer face with sharp edges. When I buy a hammer I round off the crown with my large belt sander, keep water close to quench....Don't let the hammer face get hot. Also, I belt sand the hammer face to a SLIGHT convex curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 I believe he means make it like a very slight fuller. and that would look like??:confused: (sorry for being so dense.. i just can't picture it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Most store-bought hammers are crowned on the hammer face with sharp edges. When I buy a hammer I round off the crown with my large belt sander, keep water close to quench....Don't let the hammer face get hot. Also, I belt sand the hammer face to a SLIGHT convex curve. yah thats what I do on all my hammers. THey still have a flat face but all the sharp edges are removed so the flat area blends perfectly into the rest of the hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Clad Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 It still may be a good idea to add a slight convex curve to the hammer face. It helps to move the metal better and with a flat face if you don't hammer perfectly flat you will leave more hammer marks to remove later. I learned this from Peter Ross years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 yah thats what I do on all my hammers. THey still have a flat face but all the sharp edges are removed so the flat area blends perfectly into the rest of the hammer. Sounds like a good idea. So with that slight convex edge do I try to hammer straight level when i'm drawing out or do I hammer with the sledge slightly tilted? Then I imagine your hammering from the handle down to the end before you turn to edge and do the same thing. Is that right :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Clad Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Actually the edge is not convex, the hammer face would be convex with the center of the face being the high point. Remember that this is a SLIGHT convex to the face. This is probably the "slight fuller" grant was talking about. When drawing out your already welded piece, try positioning your bar over the bick of the anvil and hammer straight down. The rounded bick coupled with the slight convex faced hammer will draw out the bar much faster than hammering on the flat anvil face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Clad Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I just read your last post again and realized your talking about a sledge hammer. I have never used a sledge hammer on the bick of the anvil. When using a sledge I would probably use the flat anvil face to draw out the bar. The extra mass under the anvil face would be more of an advantage in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Cool, okay thanks for the info.. so the convex face is enough to aid in drawing it out. So you don't angle the sledge slightly in each blow toward the drawing direction? is not necessary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Clad Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 When using a sledge, I never tilt or angle the hammer. Drawing out the bar over the bick may be possible if the bick of your anvil is thick. (Using a sledge). I have seen people do this in the past. When I draw out smaller stock with a regular cross pein I usually use the bick. To be honest, I never thought about drawing out a large piece of stock with a sledge over the bick. The bick of my anvil is very thick, this may be something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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