Bryce Masuk Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 how do the true professionals set themselves up make many of the designs that are so common in wrought iron style work? doing it all entirely by hand would be quite the slow process and it may not give the same desired look making many jigs of sorts ensuring accurate measurements of scrolls and such? what do you do personally I would like to hear it to further my own idea's of how I should be doing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 It depends on the production run and many variables: How many? How complex? How many repeated elements? Material size and shapes? Joinery? These are just a very basic few and don't touch on how your shop is set up. If it's a large enough run it may be worth it to reconfigure or even move your shop. A few basics are: (the #'s are arbitrary not by priority) #1. Material handling should be linear. Raw material comes in one end and finished product goes out the other with as little back and forth as humanly possible. This doesn't mean your shop needs to be long and narrow. Father's shop was set up so material came in the roll up door to the staging area, then to the square shears in the middle row near the staging area, then up to the circle shears or across the middle to the punch presses. From there it went to one of two rows of spinning lathes along the outside walls. The number of breakdowns determined how many spinning lathes were engaged in a run. Sometimes there were several sets involved in a large run. From the spinning lathes parts went back to the staging area by the roll up door for shipping. While it seems like a lot of back and forth it was a linear production line in that the stock came in and went through a linear set of processes and back out the door. If you mapped it in the shop most parts would describe a more or less circular path up the center and down the left or right hand wall and back out the door. #2 Steps should not repeat unless absolutely necessary. For instance, rather than run sheet through the square shear twice to make squares for the circle shears Father bought a second square shear. (when he was able to afford a second one) This allowed the strips from the first shearing to move directly to the second shear. It may not sound like much of a time savings but even seconds add up over time. Planning the steps is make or break for profit whether you have repeats or not. Without the most efficient use of time and steps someone who can shave a step will outbid you in a competitive market. Steps are any single process: Unloading the trailer/truck and racking the stock is a step. Doing it in a logical, efficient way is really important. twisting pickets, finials, collars, etc. etc. are all individual steps. A left hand twist is a different step than a right hand one. Anyway, the idea is do everything that is the same at the same time. Lets take cutting the raw stock as it's a major step. You'll need a cut pattern. (planning step) A cut pattern is how you are going to arrange the blank lengths to minimize waste. If you need 5' lengths from 20' sticks no problem, 3 cuts per stick. But what do you do when you need 109 ea. 34" L, 218 ea. 7 1/2" L pieces and 77 ea. 94 5/8" L. If you just start marking and cutting I want your drops because you're wastage is going to be in the 50% range, maybe worse. The trick of course is to mix and match the dimensions so you have the least wastage per stick. the shortest pieces are your friends as they make great fillers. for the wastage you will have regardless try your best to make it as long of single pieces as possible so you can use it later. Shops everywhere spend BIG money developing and often holding secret their cut patterns dress makers, cabinet makers, car makers, etc. etc. all have cut patterns and many don't think anything of spending thousands on the latest cut pattern software just so see if it's better than what they have now. After cutting (we're still on #2 "steps" if you're wondering) you want to do the set up first and all at once. For a leaf this would be draw the point and set the stem, drop it in a pan now because spreading the leaf is a different step. For a scroll it'd be draw the taper and drop it in a pan because turning the scroll is another step. Some steps are best done in pairs like slitting and drifting. In this case you'll save more time by drifting right after than slitting as reheating from cold will waste more time than a quick reheat after slitting. The bigger determining factor though is drifting is virtually the same thing as slitting just with a different tool. You don't even need to change hammers. Another tip if different steps require the same machine try to fit a step in between so an employee can be changing the machine over while you are doing another step. Or do it at the end of the day. If it's a really finicky set up, to the tear down at the end of the day when you're tired and do the set up in the morning when you're fresh. How you group or type steps can take many forms and sequences, it's almost as much an art as cut patterns. It's also make or break important. Okay, I see I'm in serious danger of going into ridiculous detail if I haven't already and I haven't even touched on the basics properly, heck superficially. There are a lot of production shop folk here I'm sure they'll have more coherent input. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markb Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) Excellent Frosty I've always worked in the field (construction) so when I'm in the the shop I'm a little lost. Recently I've rearranged the shop and first was take everything out not needed, that was a start then arrange in a flow pattern as you described and rearrange. Not knowing about the flow pattern but a bench 10' from were I want it seems like a big deal and I question myself, Why does it matter? I Know now. The slightest interruption in the flow seems to inhibit the process, the flow, the dance, and makes you tiered, which leads to mistakes. I don't think you can elaborate too much. Thanks Mark Edited June 28, 2009 by markb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 Thanks Frosty, I work as a fabricator and they company I work for is become more and work concerned with production we make gates and railings and such but they are just straight bars for the most part, For me its fairly obvious about some parts of what you mentioned, such as wastage and figuring out how to get the most out of what you have and figuring it out on a calculator from your cut list. the process method also makes sence as typically I make all my frames and tack everything in place finish all the work and then fully weld everything at the end I have worked in a production machine shop as well but when it comes to blacksmithing I honestly try to do everything entirely by hand, I dont even have a scroll jig because i try to prevent myself from using them in order to better understand the material and its nature. I know I am missing the core idea's of repetive paneling which honestly I know I cant do yet because I havent done it so just for example because I was talking to this fellow yesterday and realized that his skill in this type of blacksmithing is far beyond my own and perhaps someone could explain how one might make all the different jigs that they themselves use for this kind of work I wouldnt steal anyones design to use in actuallity but at this moment i dont have a 100% clear idea of what i want yet but i am almost there I also want to draw it on the computer so everyone can see what it is clearly and also so the design will be quite consistant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 For a large panel like the above, which is esentialy nonrepetitive, one would best draw the entire section on the bench it will be asembled on. As each element is created, they can be set in place and adjustments made as needed. A freind who does similar but slightly less ornate jobs draws the object full scale on cardboard with a magic marker. This works for him since he makes all the scrolls and bends freehand in a hossfeld bender by bump-bending. Since I work hot, I draw on the steel bench with soapstone. For truly repetitive work, jigs, fixtures and scroll molds are an absolute necessity. Without them, different sized elements become difficult to integrate. For some fences and or gates I may make a dozen or more jigs and tools. Of course I always hope they will be used again someday, but that is seldom the case. Making the tools must be figured into the cost of the job. On long runs of fence, I take the overall length and divide it into even sections as close to but under six feet as possible. This is because the handrail code demands a post every six feet. I then make a jig, and "mass produce" all the panels which are Identical, Usualy each having only one post and bolting together in the field. Of course the first section needs two posts, which greatly aids installation anyway. But making each panel identical, decorative elements are easier to fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 Yeah it seems to me I am always missing something, i would have figured that is made using a jig but i guess i am just not on that level yet. so typically one would first make all the frames then begin bending and fitting the pieces into the frame? this is some thing I really want to progress my ability in merely because I havent had the chance to do it and I want to see what I can do and how much I can improve it within the next couple months. I am a fairly good welder so I have been practicing joinery everyday to make myself more well rounded, im hoping i can make a few more elaborate panels then the simple things i have made in the past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) Feel free to argue disagree with the following. I am relating my observations of other peoples work. Many of the people that I have seen that do original design fences and railings work with repititive elements and gig them up on their work table. They follow the basic procedures and thinking outlined in Francis Whitaker's "Blacksmith's Cookbook: Recipies in Iron" I think if you look at the above railing you can identify an number of elements that are repeated in different combination. To do other wise would be to be an Albert Paley, doing everything for "art". Even he repeats the same elements when he can and uses "students" to expedite completion of his work. Edited June 28, 2009 by Charlotte spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 so typically one would first make all the frames then begin bending and fitting the pieces into the frame? Yep. Can't see any other way. Doesn't mean there isn't though. I am completly amazed at how often I am wrong about something on this forum. Of course there is more than one way to skin a cat. It is just that certain ways are better/easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Hi Brice I had the same question a while ago, I answered it that way: http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/interesting-tool-i-made-12457/ I work with a torch to get the bar to follow the guides. I know I will reuse this many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 yes I searched and noticed your interesting jig my friend i like it perhaps you can give me an idea of its size for my own purposes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 All of my work in the past has been of the artistic nature except for two instances, both fence/gate projects. I hated doing these because of the repetitive nature, just not what my soul wanted to be doing. I chose to lay out the fence panels on 4'x8' particle board panels. Since I was also a draftsman it was not a big deal to draw them full size. I made jigs for the scrolls that were repeated and repeated. I nailed 2x4's to start things off square and proceeded from there. It worked out well and each panel went quicker then the preceding one. Made money on the two projects but sure didn't get rich and swore I'd never do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 - Center frame length: 48" - Cross support: 13" (this measure must be calculated so that you can bring a guide up to the center and yet cover the width you need) - Sliding tube: 4 1/2" - Vertical axis: 5" (can also go underneath) - Guide stem: 1 1/2 If I were to redo, I would rather use colar instead of screws to hold the parts in place. I also have noticed that the top of the guide could be made better by putting it on a screw that would go into the stem, locked at the desired place by a nut. The main problem was the relation between the sliding tube and the one in which it slides. As soon as work is done to either, there is some distortion and the fit has to be reworked. If you have other questions, feel free to ask! Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 Im really thinking i need a platen table or something similar time to get a cnc plasma so I can make it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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