Mike Ameling Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I finally got around to tinkering up a several more of those French iron handled clasp knives made similar to the ones found on the wreck of la Salle's ship la Belle that sank off the Texas coast near Corpus Christi in 1685. The blades are carefully chiseled and ground out of saw blades, and the handles are folded up from sheet iron. On the bottom knife I used a thinner sheet iron than I normally do. It is around 20 gauge, but is closer to the very thin handles on the originals. Those were like the metal on coffee cans. The others I used about 14 gauge sheet. That thin handled one is OK, and tough enough to hold up in use. It just doesn't have the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911a1forlife Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Mike, those are really nice! I like how all the parts are made of metal and how simple they are, kindof reminds me of the german K55 cat knife with its metal handle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) Yes, such simple basic knives. Just those 3 parts -- a blade, that U shaped handle, and a pivot pin/rivet. The only tricky part is getting that pivot pin/rivet placed right. It needs to be slightly to the open side of the handle - to allow the handle to fully open and shut. And the hole in the blade needs to match. If it is slightly towards center, then the blade will over-rotate a bit and not stop on the handle until it is slightly farther open than you want. The blade on that small Skew-point knife opens just a tad too far - due to the placement of the pivot hole. It should have been a fraction closer to the open side of the handle - like around 1/16th of an inch. I've heard of a German knife kind of like these, but have not seen one. And I've also heard of a French Douck Douck Knife - again with an all metal handle. There is even an early/mid 1900's US military all metal knife. The unique part about these is that folded one-piece U shaped handle. Mikey Edited June 10, 2009 by Mike Ameling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Nice looking Knives there Mike! I like the simplicity of the design and function. If you sell them, what do you get for one...say the bigger one? Do you put a shim/spacer on the opposite end from the hinge to keep the fold from collapsing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911a1forlife Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Mike, here's my german k55 cat knife, (sorry for the lowlight pics) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 1911a1forlife- (the first one pictured) I have a friend who has carried one of those knives in her brasier to thwart would be attackers for more than 40 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 1911a1forlife- (the first one pictured) I have a friend who has carried one of those knives in her brasier to thwart would be attackers for more than 40 years. I ain't EVEN going there!!! I get in enough trouble here at home with out getting in trouble online too!!! LOL Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911a1forlife Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Fe-Wood, lol I carry mine in my fishing bag ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Nice looking Knives there Mike! I like the simplicity of the design and function. If you sell them, what do you get for one...say the bigger one? Do you put a shim/spacer on the opposite end from the hinge to keep the fold from collapsing? I don't put any spacer in. That 14 gauge sheet holds up very well in use, and resists collapsing very well. If fact, if I tap them too tight, it's kind of hard to open the U back up a bit. And if the pivot joint or blade gets a little loose with use, you just carefully/lightly tap that rivet/pin a bit - or around the sides of the knife - to tighten things back up. The 20 gauge I used on that bottom one still held its shape very well. It felt ... "tinnier" ... but still kept its shape and spacing in use. Yes, I do sell them. But these already got spoken for - except for that little skew-point knife. And it's been kind of growing on me. I might have to find a corner in my one hunting pouch to tuck it into. I've been selling these for $35 each, but I've been contemplating popping that up to $45. That 35 is where I started at several years ago, and I haven't adjusted pricing since then. The work is still the same, but materials have been climbing. Plus they are now more in ... demand ... at the Living History events around me. Pricing is always such an "inexact science". There is one guy I know that made his own up. He modified the style a bit. He forge a knife blade with a curly-q tang. Then he shaped his U handle, but cut the bend back a bit from the blade end - leaving two side "tabs" sticking up. He drilled and pinned the blade through those extended tabs. So when he opens his version up, that curly-q tang pivots around and stops when it reaches the rest of the U bend back. He made his knife like those antler handled folders they call Early Uglies. It still looked pretty good! A few people were concerned about the cutting edge closing into that U shaped handle and then resting/touching the metal. They worried about their ... razor edge sharpening. So they took a little strip of leather and glued it down inside the bottom of that U handle. So the cutting edge of the blade then touches that leather instead of the metal. Personally I haven't experienced enough of a problem with it to worry about it. My knife is a Working Knife. And I touch up the edge as needed. I don't have unreasonable expectations about a knife edge. I don't expect to sharpen it razor sharp today, use it hard for a year come next Tuesday, and expect it to still shave hair at that time. But many people expect that of a knife. A "working" carbon steel knife will dull in normal use. You just touch the edge up as needed/required. These are just a fun project to ... tinker with. Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands p.s. Now I gotta go make some more. And I picked up more 14 gauge sheet today to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 When I form the U shaped handle, I put a scrap piece of 12 gauge into the U and then tap things together pretty tight. That way I can smooth up the bend and the sides. But sometimes it gets kind of hard to then get that scrap 12 gauge piece back out! And that 12 gauge ends up being only slightly thicker than the saw blade material I use to form the knife blade. But I might need to scrounge up a chunk of 10 gauge to use as a spacer. That might cut down on the "tweaking" I end up having to do to get the blade to pivot in and out of that handle. It's always easy to "tighten" the handle up by tapping it closer together, but a lot harder to spread it back apart just a tick! It's something of a balancing act - tight enough that the blade doesn't just flop in/out too easily, but not so tight that you need a pliers to open the knife. Tinkering. Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Do you use old band saw blades from the big mills for your blades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks for the info Mike...I might give one or two a go... Seems like a simple yet challenging project and I have some old saw blades to chew up:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 I use either the old large two-man crosscut saws, or those big sawmill bandsaw blades. The last two-man crosscut saw blade I started working with was ... too brittle. It's good for some things, but wanted to crack/break in an unpredictable manner. The big sawmill bandsaw blades work well. But stay away from the area of the teeth. A lot of saw blades are bi-metal. The teeth area has a higher quality of tool steel while the rest of the blade is of lower quality. The "junkyard steels" chart says the blades are L6. I carefully chisel out the shape of the knife blade, but a tad larger than needed. I then carefully grind it down to the final profile/dimensions. I keep it cool all the time - to retain the original heat-treat of the saw blade. If it's getting too hot to hold in your fingers, then you cool it right away. So there is no heat involved in making a knife like this. It's all done cold. Now, getting that pivot hole in the blade can be a problem. That hardened tool steel tends to just eat up drill bits! Even the expensive ones! So I made up a punch with a vary small end. I then lay the future knife blade over a bottom block, and "punch" the hole through. I lightly tap the first time to make sure I have the right spot lined up. Then I hit the punch several more times, a little harder each time. Eventually the punch will shear through a slug out of the saw blade, and push it down into that bottom block. I then run a drill bit through the hole to "true" it up. The large bandsaw blade is "soft" enough to drill as-is. Yet it still has enough tool steel in it and heat-treat to hold an edge pretty well. Like any carbon steel knife, you do have to touch up the working edge in use. A plasma or lazer cutter/torch could be used to cut out the knife blanks. Any loss of the original heat-treat along the cut edges would be ground away as you clean up the profile, and do the final shaping. No, these are not ... high quality custom knife maker type knives. Just a working persons little ... sharp! Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 One further "manufacturing" tip that I had forgot about until ... tinkering ... today. Before you bend that sheet into the U shape for the handle, CLEAN UP what will be that INSIDE part FIRST. I was working on a handle today and forgot to clean it up until I had bent it into that U shape. So I had to take a thin strip of metal, wrap it into some sandpaper, and then "CLEAN" that inside of the surface rust on the metal! I got it cleaned up, but had to ... tinker ... more than I should have. It's also mildly important to do some of that cleaning on the end of the blade around that pivot hole as well. Just little things .... Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in Oregon Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Mike: How do you chisel the blades out of a saw blade? What kind of saw blade and I assume you anneal the blade first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Mike: How do you chisel the blades out of a saw blade? What kind of saw blade and I assume you anneal the blade first? you may have missed the part where he said I keep it cool all the time - to retain the original heat-treat of the saw blade. If it's getting too hot to hold in your fingers, then you cool it right away. So there is no heat involved in making a knife like this. It's all done cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 (edited) Yup, I chisel them out COLD without annealing the blades. That retains the original heat-treat of the saw blade and I don't have to mess around with that. Just don't get it too hot when grinding/sanding. I lightly score/chisel around the profile of the shape I want to cut out. Then I go over that line several more times, hitting a little harder with each pass. The hardened metal in the saw blades will start to fracture and crack along those chisel lines. And eventually you can just "snap" it out along those lines. It's also kind of hard to hold everything when chiseling. That's where the treadle hammer really helps! I adapted a pair of ring tongs to hold my chisels - with a chain link to clamp the reins. My two primary chisels are made from H13. They really hold up in use, and I abuse the heck out of them. The head mushrooms out a little, but some quick grinding takes care of that. The cutting edge holds up real well in use with either hot or cold metal. A light touch-up with the angle grinder and flap/sanding disk keeps them sharp enough. But that treadle hammer is amazing for all that little chiseling/punching work. I also use it as a FLATTER all the time on forged items. Really smooths and evens things out fast. I made a bottom block from some scrap - about the size of a stick match box. One side is for chiseling/punching, and shows all the nicks/lines/scars. The other side is smooth for that Flatter work. One of these days I'll even make a holder to keep it in one place instead of having it slide around in use ... one of these days. Mikey Edited June 22, 2009 by Mike Ameling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 Here's a couple pics of the latest batch of these knives that I finished up last week. And I'm starting to find more references to them being Sailor's Knives - from the 1600's on up through the 1800's, even the early 1900's. Plus the early Romans had their own variation of them. Interesting projects. Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 There is no stop to keep the blade edge from contacting the inside of the handle. In use, it has not been a problem. But some people have glued a strip of leather in the bottom bend of the handle for the blade to contact instead of touching metal. They were worried about it enough to take that step. I just haven't found it necessary. Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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