mcraigl Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Mike-hr asked me to post pix of my first hawk to the existing thread, but that one has gotten a little long so I thought I'd start a new one. Anyway, I made this out of a new RR spike. I upset it to 3.5" long, then started the eye with a slot punch, finished with drifts, then I forged the blade section on Mike's power hammer with the incline dies in it. I polished it with little flapper wheels of assorted grits in my roto-zip (don't have a pneumatic die grinder yet) and with the dremel tool. then I buffed/polished. the handle is make from a broken shovel handle. I'm pretty happy with it. In fact several folks have asked me if it's a throwin' 'hawk and I've told 'em heck no. It's sort of like a brand new truck, I'm afraid to drive it through the brush until it's got it's first scratches... Some of you guys do amazing work and I'd appreciate any pointers on polishing irregular surfaces. I burned up an easy $25 worth of flapper wheels (don't think their designed for roto-zip rpm's even though they say they are). Also the buffing compound / felt thing is very very time consuming... Also, any good ideas for finishing that will help delay the onset of rust? Any other comments suggestions are also appreciated... Thanks, McRaigl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolano Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Wow.... Thats beautiful.... Great work. A note, though. As JPH points out in his book, a mirror finish should be avoided on anything that will see use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodforge Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nice Work McRaigl. Must be really nice to have access expert instruction like Mike-HR close by not to mention access to a power hammer As far as tips on polishing go, those mini flap discs for the Dremmel or Roto zip are expensive compared to the flapdiscs for a 4" angle grinder, not to mention the 4" grinder has way more motor to get the job done faster. I'm guessing you dont have a one of those yet, I'd suggest buying a good one like a Milwaukee or Dewalt, not the $19.00 H.F. Chinese model , but even the H.F. one should last a good while if your not running it 4-6 hrs a day 5 days a week. Or like you said the pneumatic Die grinder might be a good option, if you already have the air compressor. I use lots of those 3M Rollock Discs, ( looks kinda like a scotch brite pad ) for odd shaped surfaces, so your on the right track there. Just use something to knock the scale off like an overnight soak in some vinegar. Forge scale eats abrasives faster than hardend steel some times. Personally anything past about 400 grit is HARD WORK ! IMHO, I usually don't use a buffer on my blades so a hand rubbed 600 grit finish is sort of my standard, either that or a 1000 grit waterstone finish with a light vinegar etch. I just don't have the patience for mirror polishing To keep rust away I use camellia oil or marvel mystery oil. Hope this Helps , Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Wow, that's a nice one. Looks like you did a good job of upsetting it. Theres plenty of material around the eye- you could have even brought down some eye lugs. Don't forget- it's best to have a convex grind on choppers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Mike Hr had mentioned to me that you were doing some really nice work,,,this piece is even better that that... Keep up the good work,,, Almost every knife that is not damascus that leaves my shop is mirror polished and alot of them are used in the field. If youi would like to try a little experiment grind some high carbon steel to about a 120 grit finish. doesn't even have to be knife shaped. Then mirror polish the other side,,,If you live in a humid area just keep and eye on the piece now and then and watch for rust..if you live live an arid area like I do mist a little water on both sides now and then and watch and see.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted June 29, 2006 Author Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nolan, yea I'm with you on "polishing something that will be used". It started off with an overnight bath in vinegar and when I wire brushed the remaining scale off, there were virtually NO HAMMER MARKS. Gotta be a first on any of my projects. The only hammer mark is on the bottom of the eye I had a double strike with the slot punch. Anyway, so I figured what the heck and started in on the flat sides of the blade with my 1" belt sander and 220 grit. Once I saw that it "wanted to be polished", I figured what the heck and went for it. It's my first one, and will probably mostly be a conversation / study piece for a while. Jens, I've actually got a couple of angle grinders but all the flapper wheels I've got are 60 grit and I was a little afraid of putting scratches in that would require even more effort to get out. I forgot to mention in the original post that I was a retard and pretty much completely polished it BEFORE I heat treated so I got to go through the whole process TWICE! I've seen those scotch brite looking pads, guess I'll buy one just to see how they work. Everything a guy can add to his arsenal to make things go easier... You're right about Mike-HR. He's as good as they come, and a very patient willing teacher. He's created a monster, and I think he's starting to realize how big of a pain in the butt I really am! All these questions and stuff.... I was really intimidated by his power hammer the first time or two I used it, but when we made that butcher hardie that we presented on the tue. night blue prints I fell in love. That axle shaft is really tuff stuff and by hand hammer I'm pretty sure I'd have made a career out of that one tool! So camilla and marvel mystery are food safe? Not that I'll be cutting up my steak with this thing (though you easily could), but I've got a couple of nagging knife ideas right now that I'm going to try when I get back from vacation if I can talk Mike-hr out of some more spud-chain.... Tyler, what do you mean about a "convex grind on choppers"? I've never had any "official" instruction in blades. In fact, I think I really would like to buy one of JPH's books, and/or some other bladesmithing books since I've read everything else my wife already bought me. In college I competed in lumberjack competitions and pretty much ground this 'hawk just as I ground our heavy hit and speed axe's. Except mayber creating a little bit larger "margin" on the edge than on a comp axe. Actually I guess I'd say it's ground exactly as our throwing axes were ground. As ground now it's pretty much a "flat", neither concave or convex. Does the convex work better? Or safer? Or? I could probably be convince of either of those now that I think about it. Thanks to all for the comments. Next one is going to be made from the tie rod off a 1-ton pickup I think... Here's some pix of the creation process so you can see the upset and eye creation steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodforge Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Mcraigl, I use marvel Mystery oil on the wood choppers, Camellia oil on the Steak choppers. BTW Nice Progress Pics , thats a nice touch Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted June 29, 2006 Author Share Posted June 29, 2006 Thanks Jens. Yea, and look at the beautiful Pedinghaus.... Wish I had one of those in my shop!!! So where does a guy get camilla oil? Never heard of it before, though I've been using marvel for a variety of things forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodforge Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15.574.85&dept_id=13153 I've used this stuff for years on my chisels, wood planes and kitchen knives I love it. Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 mcraigl, The convex grind holds an edge longer. You do more cutting to get a job done with an axe than with a knife. The convex grind also is stronger. It protects from chipping. It also keeps the axe from being stuck in the wood. As you probably know because you were a competitive lumberjack- to keep the axe from being stuck in the wood it should have a convex grind, then a slight thickening of the blade behind the bit, and then a slimming of the blade behind that. This makes it so that only a small portion of the axe blade is touching the wood while it is lodged in- making it easier to get it unstuck. Understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Any chance of a Blueprint of the hawk from the RR Spike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 MCRAIG-- You just keep pudling along. Looks to me like you have a working pard. MIKE is not going to let you go far wrong. You can get the flap-wheels in finer grit for the 4". Just keep on keeping on and you will be there before you know it. I would quench the tie-rod in oil first,(could be 5160 or 9260 if from a newer model) then if it does not harden to suit you, try hot water. Draw(temper) it pretty hard. I would not want the blade any harder than a middle 50s or so. A little longer grind on th edge. not quite so abrupt an angle. Looks Great to me. Good luck. chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolano Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_grind Thats something I found when I was unsure of what they meant by a hollow grind. an axe grind and a concvex grind are the same thing, in case you didnt realize. Also, mike is indeed a neat guy. It was nice to meet him a few weeks back. sometime I hope to go visit his shop, if I get the chance. Say hi for me, if you would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted June 30, 2006 Author Share Posted June 30, 2006 Glenn, Do you think this is enough, and good enough pix for a blue print? (I pretty much posted all the pix I took in this post) If so, I'd be more than willing to write it up, though I hardly feel qualified to tell anyone here how to do something... If you think we need more "action" shots maybe I'll have to bribe Mike-hr into letting me invade his shop again in a couple of weeks when I get back from vacation. He needs more practice taking photos anyway so it probably wouldn't be that tough to talk him into (along with the requisit liquid refreshment :-) Not sure I'd want to subject myself to all that polishing again though, that was more work than I thought it would be... Chuck, thanks for the encouragement and advice. I really appreciate how freely the old salts give good advice here, especially since I'm so new to the forum. To that end, if I ever come across as a snot nosed, know it all kid I'd appreciate it if someone let me know (or you could let Mike-hr know and he'd straighten me out!) Mike-hr is definately first class, and you're right he won't let me go too far wrong. He showed me the "junk yard heat treating" when we were making the butcher hardie. We quenched in veg. oil first, then moved to water. Also used a small piece of cutoff to perfect our tempering temp. Pretty interesting stuff. Thanks again for all the comments folks. I'm actually really happy with how this 'hawk turned out. Most of my first time projects really look like they were my first time, and I couldn't really be happier with how this one turned out. Almost don't want to make another one 'cause it might not turn out as nice :-) McRaigl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 The beauty of the blueprints is that there is no competition, a blueprint is showing how YOU do things YOUR way. Put ten different ways to do the same project together and a viewer can try all ten ways and one will work best for them. For instance, how many ways are there to make tongs? A blueprint on each would be a wonderful resource. If you get Mike to assist you with this, I would like you to take careful notes from the time you arrive, to the time you leave, and write down any "other" tricks, ideas, or knowledge you gain from visiting his shop and watching him work with metal. Try to keep it less than a doctorial thesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted June 30, 2006 Author Share Posted June 30, 2006 If you get Mike to assist you with this, I would like you to take careful notes from the time you arrive, to the time you leave, and write down any "other" tricks, ideas, or knowledge you gain from visiting his shop and watching him work with metal. Try to keep it less than a doctorial thesis. Glenn, how well do you know Mike? If you know him well, then you already knew that what you just asked of me is paradoxical. Or maybe an oxymoron. IF I took careful, detailed notes from the time I arrived at say around 6pm til the time I usually leave say around 12am, the document would be at least twice as long as my actual master's thesis was, and would certainly be approaching the length of several doctoral dissertations I've reviewed. Unfortuneately being so new to the BS'ing scene I probably don't recognize all the really cool methods/tools/techniques that he has or uses that would be of interest to you. I'm generally fascinated from the time I arrive to the time I leave by just about everything BS and general fabrication related. But having said all that, I'll see what I can do... ML Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted June 30, 2006 Author Share Posted June 30, 2006 Rich, Come on man...... Now you're killing me... Not going to tell me what happens??? Xxxx, I guess I'll have to wait a couple of weeks to find out on my own. I am going to look into those scotch brite pad type discs. I really didn't want to remove any more material than absolutely necessary so was avoiding the more aggresive abrasives. Sounds like it might be just the ticket, along with an air die grinder so I have variable speed vs. the rotozip (aka electric die grinder) which just has a speed of about 25,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Mcraigl-- I know what you mean. I am that way everytime I go to JIM KEITH'S shop in TUCUMCARI N.M. He assumes a lot. He assumes I know of what he is speaking.Grin. I have learned a bunch from him, but am just now getting to where most of what he says soaks in. Until I had been at this b.s.ing for a couple of years, a lot of what he was showing and telling me was NOT comprehended. I wish I could go back through some of the earlier sessions. That is how you learn. Pick up a little at a time till finally a light comes on. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted June 30, 2006 Author Share Posted June 30, 2006 Chuck, you know it's like a lot of other arts. When you don't know nothin', you don't notice nothin'. Something I used to hear from a couple of Scandinavian master carpenters I labored for in my youth. Now that I know just a little bit more than nothin' I really get more and more out of "lessons" or just watching an experienced smith work. At first all you notice is a guy hitting a piece of iron with a hammer. Then you notice what color it was when it came out and went back into the forge. Next time you notice his stance with the anvil (sometimes I swear he's makin' love to that thing :-). Another time you notice the angle of the hammer in relation to the hot steel in relation to the anvil face. I've got a list of mental notes of "moves" that I want to watch some guys make. For instance, simply drawing a point for a steak turner. At the hammer in, I watched a couple of guys do the whole thing in one or "maybe" two heats. I can burn up a good three, four, even five heats to pull a satisfactory tapered point on a piece of 3/8 or 1/2 square. 'Course Mike does it for a living so is generally pretty happy to instruct by the time I get there as he's already put in a 10+hr day at the forge or out in the sun. Though he did make me a slot chisel and two hammer eye drifts while I was forging the head for the tomahawk (dang it I didn't get to watch). Anyway, gotta get ready to go on vacation now. Sorry for my long posts, not to mention some of the worlds longest paragraphs (I didn't major in english:-). It's a blessing and a curse to be able to type 60 words per minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbillysmith Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Mcraigl, yes please make a blueprint on that 'hawk. you don't know how many RR spikes that I've ruined trying to make one of those. Don't worry about thinking that "you're not qualified to be telling anyone here what to do". You are perfectly qualified like Glenn said, it's just YOU'RE way of making a RR spike 'hawk. Just because you do it that way doesn't mean the next person has to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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