NeatGuy Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 hmmm I can't believe I did not see the manage attachement button ! I hope this helps clarify my design. bradRibbon Burner - Burner Assembly.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Very nice and clean assembly. Thank you for sharing that with us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Nice drawings, you've done that before haven't you. What software did you use to make the drawings? Thanks, it'll help quite a bit if Zeke decides to fab his own burner(s). Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeatGuy Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I use Solidworks; there is no other. It take the guess work out of every thing after designing with Solidworks it is almost an anticlimax to actuall build the object! bray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prburner Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Brad, Nice job on the burner! You have put a lot of thought into it. In the past I have built several IFB (Insulating Fire Brick) burners. Even the G28's don't have the lifespan of a burner block cast from a high quality refractory, but since your design makes it so easy to replace that becomes much less of a factor. A tapered hole won't have much effect. What will help with flame retention and stability is a stepped diameter orifice like I use. The first part of the orifice is smaller in diameter. This is the metering orifice and it supplies a consistant amount of fuel mix at a relatively high speed. The second larger diameter part is the delivery orifice. Here the fuel mix expands and slows down just before leaves the burner. This helps the flame retain on the block face, and gives better flame stability over a wider turn up/turn down ratio. The trick, of course, is in balancing the relationship between both the lengths and the diameters of the two orifices. Whether or not you could get it done in the thickness of an IFB I'm not sure, but bit might be worth fooling with. Charlotte, "a little leak might not make any real difference" unless it leaks out into and behind the fiber blanket forge wall. Being a manufacturer I tend to see design in terms of liability. You will have to forgive me, it comes with the territory :grin: Regards, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Tom, I completely understand. We have discussed Liability issues here with regard to other products as for instance electric lighting. There are a couple things I like about your design in that it addresses many of the issues that I recognized as problems in the first ribbon burner design that I saw. I definitely like the use of metering tubes to balance the flow out between locations. It also reduces the possibility of flash back in the event of power failure. Even destruction of the burner refactory would not dump unrestricted fuel mixture flow into the furnace. A crack developing in the first design would dump more air into the mixture and upset the fuel ratio. I'm not a big fan of using IFB without a coating of refactory mortar on all flame exposed surfaces. I think this comes from my experiences with doing weld annealing furnaces in the 60's. Even the best IFB tends to break down rapidly with carbon monoxide exposure at temp. However, I think Brad is using a hard firebrick shape for his burner. I checked with AP Green distribution location 20 miles from me, and there is a shape used in arch construction that closely matches Brad's burner. (That is if I communicated accurately with the order taker.) However they are not a stock item at that location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeatGuy Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I just cut the brick with a diamond masonary saw. If you do not have one most refaractory places I have been to seem to have a saw of sorts. brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I just cut the brick with a diamond masonary saw. If you do not have one most refaractory places I have been to seem to have a saw of sorts. brad Ok then, I was correct about the material wrong about how you got the shape. Hmmm, I'm going to have to make a trip to the distribution point and get hold of the exact dimensions of the fire brick shapes. I know there are several different shapes available. I'm not sure how well the clerk and I understood each other over the phone. For me the question then becomes how the purchase fits in with the relative completion costs/safety/operational details of three different methods of construction. The choices strongly influence the over all design. Have to try to quantitate the Hassel factor also. Looks like spreadsheet time. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) when I built my brick side draft I used a little over 900 hard building bricks and 85 hard fire brick, I paid $20 for an abrasive saw blade for my chop saw, after a third of a cut I removed brick and cooled in water to prevent heat fractures. when I had the forge and chimney built, I only used up about half the saw blade. for comparison: they wanted $40 per day for a rental, and $150 to purchase a diamond saw. Edited May 20, 2009 by steve sells funny typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 That is good to know Steve. Have to factor in price of HF chop saw and blade. Normally I use a HF band saw for stock cutting so on the +/- side is new equipment vers messing up my table saw or circular saw. Diamond saw blade is out of question. Remington grit edge hack saw blade is the cheapest but rates high on the Pita and hassel factory scales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I already had the chop saw, got it a year before on sale for $60, I hate to admit it, but at HF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 All inexpensive tools have their place. HF tools, IMHO, = Use at need but not counted on when production deadlines have to be met. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prburner Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Charlotte, I too have some issues with the Hammer's Blow type design. My main concern is the way the cast block is attached to the steel shell. Cast refractories shrink some when fired, and if fired hotter on one side than the other, they are also prone to cracking. With the burner block attached directly to the plenum, a crack in the burner block or leak at the block/shell interface could allow combustables to migrate into areas of the forge other than the combustion chamber. Since this part of the burner is buried in the forge wall, there is no way to visually inspect it. I like Brad's design because a hard firebrick is evenly pre-fired so there will be no further shrinkage, and it is much less prone to cracking. As long as there is no warping of the steel shell, a good quality high temperature mortar should provide an adequate seal. I use a steel plate to isolate the plenum from the burner block. The only way combustibles can leave the plenum is through the metering tubes. See cutaway model of burner below. Brad, What type of drill bit do you use? Any problems with cracking the brick when drilling that many holes in it? Tricks or tips? Regards, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Tom, Thanks for the pic. It explains a couple of things I was wondering about. Charlotte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ab Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I have a request from a local bladesmith who wants to make a heat treat oven and would like to use a ribbon burner. In spite of how many burners I've built I've never build a ribbon burner and need some general rules of thumb such as: Number and dia of the burner holes per sq/in. and pattern if there is one. Size of the plenum per length of burner. He wants a pretty long forge, upwards of 4 1/2' so I think there will need to be a substantial plenum to maintain an even pressure to the burner holes. How much blower? Placement of the blower output in the plenum? And anything else we might need to know. Thanks, Frosty Frosty, if you made that ribbon burner, how did it work out, and what specs did you use? Thanks, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ab Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I make a very easy to make ribon burner. I have built several as shown in the Hammers Blow article and have found it to have many design flaws. I will post some pictures of the one I started yesterday. It takes about 2 hours to assemble no cast refractory. Here is an early version which works well but I would recomend the new version which I will post some pictures soon. brad Neatguy, Could you show me where the specs are for your ribbon burner? I tried to look at the photos in your post, but I couldn't. Thanks, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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