cheftjcook Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 looking for help and Advice on scrolls. I am trying to figure out a small garden project that will involve a few scrolls. I have read every scroll blue print on design and layout and found it very very informative and helpfull. So Thankyou all for sharing your knowledge it does mean alot to me personely and I am sure many others, as it smooths out some of the learning speed bumps along the way. On to the Question, is there a way or formula to figure the length of steel needed to produce a given size scroll? I have been drawing my ideas on plywood for effect , I then use string to trace the drawing then measuring the string for lengths. I don't know how correct that is but it seemed logical to try and get an idea of raw steel vs. finished scroll. Also to get an Idea of what is needed to complete the project. Am I close? You know The "Learning Curve" is pretty sharp for a newbie!!! (grin) Seriously maybe one of you smithys here can point me in the right direction. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 I lay out my scrolls much the same way, except I draw them on the garage floor with chalk. I use a seamstress tape, cloth tape measure, to measure the scroll. the tape is inches on one side and metric on the other so it eliminates one step in the process. Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 I like to use a length of plumber's solder to trace the full size drawings. It forms and holds the shape easily and then can be restraightened for a measurement. BT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 Woody the cloth tape measure sounds great!! I had 'nt thought of that but it will save a step and be more accurate as well. I like to draw on the plywood because as I practice an item i wll put it against the drawing to compare. Burn marks and the walls will raise the dander of the wife.(grin) But she might prefer that to the "Bud Girls" poster hanging up now!!! Thanks for the tip I will pick a cloth tape tommorow and give it a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 BT, another cool idea I would not have thought of. I want to try and make a big heart as a flower pot holder and that would work well. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strine Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 is there a way or formula to figure the length of steel needed to produce a given size scroll Chef, there a lots and lots of different types of scrolls or spirals in a mathematical sense if you like and you can alter the shape of the scoll by altering one of the variables in the formula. A simple formula for a spiral might look something like R = P I doubt whether you could get any simpler eh? Apply it like this Draw a point on your layout sheet and call it the centre of the scroll. Draw a line sideways from this point and call this the baseline of the scroll. Now plot points on the sheet where R is the distance in cm from the centre and P is the angle in degrees the ruler makes with the baseline. When you get to 360 degrees ie all the way back to the start the angle just becomes 370 (10) degrees and the distance 370 cm. That gives one scroll with a particular length depending when you get bored with the plotting. Instead of R = P make it R = 1.2 x P, or 0.1254 x P, or 112.365897 x P. Do you get the drift the length could end up as anything depending on your formula. My advice...go with the flow. Draw your scroll any which way and run a piece of string (or any other long skinny thing) around it to get the length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefthand forge Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Evening All. I like to use lead cane "stained glass supply" for both measuring. and drawing scrolls. But personally I usually find it is easier and more accurate to grab say a four foot piece of the intended stock, forge the scroll I want cut it off and measure the remainder, subtract that from four feet and you have the length of materiel for your scroll fancy end and all. Plus a template that you you can't possibly burn or smudge out. For S scrolls forge each end seperate rotate them till they look good together match mark them, measure and subtract each piece and then ad your lengths together for the whole scroll. For C scrolls, you just do one half, and double the number. I know everyone else probably does this also, but I didn't see anyone mention it so I thought I would. Johnny :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 To elaborate on what Johnny just said, if you make a test piece, then you know how much material you need. Since every part of the scroll is forged, the starting length won't be the same. If you forge a fishtail or ha'penny or taper or whatever on the end, and taper the scroll somewhat, and reforge the scroll length, then you wind up with a length that is the result of all that forging. So if you start with 4', do all your forging and then measure the result. Maybe it will be 52" now. Forge the scroll the way you want, and cut it off. As Johnny said, measure the leftover piece. Say that is 24" of original dimensioned stock. Now you know for an identical scroll, you need 24" of original stock that will be 28" when you have done your forging. If you pay attention and are conscientous with your work, then close is good enough. I qualified that statement that way because I hate to give the impression that it is okay to be sloppy. But it is worth noting that scrolls are fairly forgiving. If you look at some of the superb gates, both contemporary and old, the scrolls all look uniform, symetrical, and beautiful. However, on very close inspection, you can see that the ends of the scrolls are all over the place. Not wildly different usually, but definitely varied. Some scrolls might be slightly more open to compensate here or there and the end of the scroll might point 10 or 15 degrees or more away from the direction of its companion scroll. So aim for completely perfect and identical, and the small variations will be just enough to give it character and warmth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Remember on smaller scrolls the length of stock used for "same type scrolls" is more critical - I try to forge to an exact length before scrolling (like within a 1/16"). An extra heat to get the right lenght will save a lot of trouble getting the forging to look the same as another one. By doing this you end up with pieces that look almost exactly the same, like the 2 side elements in the detail picture. This detail is about 8" x 8". Also writing these dimensions down in a notebook is a great idea - I seem to forget easily the different lengths I started out with. Have fun - Jeremy Don't forget to texture the stock before making measurements because that also will change the length :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamp Fox Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 When making multiple scrolls, find the length of stock as discribed above. Make a couple of practice scroll pieces. Then forge the ENDS only (both ends) for the group of work. You can handle straight stock better than stock that is bent and the ends are now much more consistant. Next bend the group into scrolls and the bends will be more consistant also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Another method of getting "identical" scrolls is to forge the scroll to your satisfaction in *heavy stock* and the heat it and push it out so the middle sticks up and let cool and use it as a form. Mount it in a vise and you can then take a hot piece with the end already forged and then just grab the end and the form with a pair of tongs or vise grips and wrap the hot piece along the form. You will still need to "compress" it back to a flat plain but you will have "identical" scrolls Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 It is fantastic to hear and learn so many differing but similar ways to accomplish the same objective, All obviously time tested for great results. It really enhances the learning process and encourages the imagination. Thanks, this place is Great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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