jsurgeson Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Hi All I am new to this forum and new to forging in general, so sorry if this has been answered before, searched but could not find specific answer. Have just rebuild my home built gas forge after reading various posts on this forum. I am going from 1 to 2 burners, they are 1" Reil type burners with 0.6mm mig tips. My first single burner I used 1/4" copper tube with brass compression tee's and elbow fittings, with my new double burners I used simple solder type fittings. I did this without thinking if solder type fittings are suitable for this. :confused: In my very short experience the bell reducer which houses the jets does not get all that hot, at least not hot enough to "unsolder" the fittings, does it? Anyone offer any reason why solder fittings wont work? Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Welcome aboard Jeff, glad to have ya. In operation burners don't get all that hot due to the constant flow of air. However, if you only run one burner the one that is off will act as a chimney and probably get hot enough to melt the solder. When I run my multiple burner forge any off and open burner will turn blue to the top. I think you'll be happier with the compression fittings. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsurgeson Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 (edited) Thanks for that, its kind of what I thought but was hoping that I would not have to redo it from scratch. :mad: Just a thought (long shot actually) you say the burner that is "off and open" will act as a chimney and get very hot, can I assume then that if the choke is fully closed it wont? or am I clutching at straws here? Edited March 24, 2009 by jsurgeson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Hi jsurgeson, Welcome! Frosty is right, they do get hot enough to melt... been there done that. I was in a hurry when I put my burners together, actually solder was all I had on site. So, solder I did! First fire-up melted the joint, not enough to come undone just mis alligned. From then on I closed the choke to stop the flue affect. It works but I'm making threaded jets as replacements. My 2 cents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsurgeson Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 Thanks Guys, You are right, makes sense to do it right first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Closing the choke will inhibit the chimney effect but not stop it completely. Will it be enough though? I don't know. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsurgeson Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 Yes I think considering the possible negative results of leaking gas from the wrong orifices and possible consequences, even if it might work its just not worth the risk, so I went out and bought some high quality brass fittings. Ouch! :mad: they are expensive. But I suppose if it is worth doing it's worth doing right. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfDuck Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 All gas fired equipment must be piped in black iron according to the code here in Canada. Compression (brass ) fitting losen with use, and solder melts in adverse conditions. If you had to explain to someone else why someone got blown up because of a material malfunction you recommended you are taking too many risks, and just think of what insurance companys would do with this situation. Hummmm let me think, hope you do to. A multi licience Gas fitter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 don't forget that a stopper/plug made of the inswool will block the un-used burners and stop the chimney effect. a cotton ball size should be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 sfDuck- I don't think I've ever seen a jet/orifice made out of black iron (unless it was a hole drilled in the wall). Have you? So, to go from your portable propane tank to your forge, you use black iron? wow!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 The location of the compression fitting in this case is not a leak hazard. It holds the jet itself and needs not be gas tight as the end of the jet is always open. I agree though do not take unnecessary chances. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsurgeson Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 (edited) Thought I would show a few images of my new forge and show how the compression fittings worked out. :cool: Edited March 27, 2009 by jsurgeson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Are they working for you now Jeff? I sure hope so because those things are darned . . . Uh . . . Er . . . . Not pretty. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsurgeson Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 Hi Frosty Yeah they are aren't they? almost did not post them. They work but as you can see the burner tubes have been butchered so much due to the, make remake of the piping I ended up with lots of unwanted holes. The back burner splutters a bit even with the choke fully closed, I think that going down to a 0.6mm jet (was 1mm) with 1" tubes is starving the burners a bit. This improves when I put my hand over and block some of the air intake. Besides them being completely ugly and badly made do you see any other obvious mistakes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Only thing I would add to the forge in general (Which I like very much otherwise) is doors. Not to block the openings completely but to restrict heat from just blowing out the ends. I believe its refered to as back pressure (but I may be wrong too). Otherwise the only spot that heats is right under the burners. There would of course be transient heat after a while but if you have a door with a smaller opening than the inside dimension, I believe it would heat faster. For example, if the inside dimension was 6" x 6", I would make a door with a 4" x 4" opening for each end. It could cause the burners to burn differently; maybe better, but YMMV. Just my 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 It's hard to say exactly what's going on but a 1" 25mm. burner tube should burn well with a 1.1 or 1.14 mm jet. My 1" burner runs well on a 0.045" mig tip. then again it's a different type all together. How long are your tubes? For 1" dia they should be between 8-9". Also, the more irregularities there are, like the extra holes in the bell or the oversized gap for the fuel line will effect it negatively. Still, I don't see anything inherently wrong with them outside of just needing a general overhaul. You can get better results from the same design if you cleaned it up. For the burner mount I like to clamp a thread protector to the forge body and then just screw the burners into it. The thread protector (same as a coupler but usually free for the asking as they're not proper plumbing couplers) also acts like a simple flare increasing induction and over all burner performance. Being free it doesn't bother me when they burn up. I just tried a search and couldn't find one with the burner I build in it. I'll need to read through a few and then I'll link to it here so you can see what I do for burners. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsurgeson Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 Dodge, Yes I intended to do a restricted front door, as I have with the rear, just need to fashion some sort of simple hinge. On the other hand the internal dimensions are so small was thinking it was possibly a waste of time as it heats up pretty fast. I can take a knife blade from 0 - non magnetic temp which is only a few degrees under hardening temp of n690 blade steel in under 20 mins. On the other hand, seen gas is very expensive here every bit of saving counts. Frosty, Dimensions are: Internal:- 4.5" x 4.5" x 16" (115mm x 115mm x 406mm) Burner:- overall 12" (300mm) 10" tube 2" reducer (2" - 1") Jet:- 0.6mm mig tips Do you think the extra 2" on the burner will effect the way it burns? You are right, now that it works almost right I need to clean them up and get rid of the unneeded holes and make pretty. What is a "thread protector" never heard of or seen one, also I have no threads on my burner pipe, you cant get long nipples here. I dont have large threading tools so weld all joins. Does the fit between the burner and box need to be perfect? does a loose fit like mine effect the way it burns? Thanks for taking time to look at and answer my basic mistakes and questions. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Jeff: The rules of thumb are not written in stone. For the most part they're good departure points. If your burner burns well it's a good burner. Kind of like landing aircraft, if you can walk away it's a good one. Thread protectors are screwed onto the end of lengths of pipe that are already threaded to protect the threads in shipping. (I wonder if I could slip a variant of "thread" in there one more time?) Anyway, I can buy long nipples at the plumbing supply right down the road or they'll thread whatever length I need for about $1 each. So I screw my burners together and use freeby thread protectors as sacrificial ends in the forge chamber. Thread protectors are just the next size pipe up threaded internally, usually only on one end. The proper thing to use for connecting pipes is a "coupler", a short cast piece threaded internally on both ends. These will work fine but are more expensive than free. This is a concept sketch of what I build though it doesn't include a thread protector "flare". Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsurgeson Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Cheers Frosty Thanks for the image, in the near future I am going to rebuild a larger forge with less complicated burner design, preferably all black steel, less fittings, less bends = less problems. For now, seen it works ok'ish, will live with it. Thanks for all the help and advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Any time Jeff, it's my pleasure. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBrann Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 I am a big fan of flare fittings on gas.... copper tube.. type K i think...refrigeration grade.... and a flare tool... they work great and can be tightened.......black iron from the main in to the room, master cut off valve and ANSEL valve, then copper to the appliances... compression fitting suck..... you get 1 chance.... and it usualy fails after a while.... I am no a gas ftter or plumber.... but hane piped in a couple of small comercial kitchens and been checked by the code inspector... passed everytime... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Okay, the compression fitting isn't connecting tubing to anything. It's a way to hold the mig tip and not have to drill and tap a fitting. It also allows you to keep the jet farther from the burner's throat. This is NOT a gas tight connection, the end of the mig tip (jet) that is being held by the fitting is open into the burner. Any leak around the compression fitting takes place INSIDE the burner and is of zero safety concern. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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