blksmth Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Kerry, those look like very good tools. for your own safety though, I'll mention that tools used for punching and chiseling hot steel probably should not be so hard that a file skates on them. Particularly on the shank or hitting end. The working end, probably won't stay that hard when used as the hot iron will temper them for you. It looks like the temper on your entire tool is a bronze, which would normally be a very hard tool (depending on the steel). The shank and hitting end should never be that hard. I would temper the whole tool to a darker blue color and so that you can file it easily. Then if you want the working end harder, just harden 1/2 inch or so. Someplace on this forum, Brian Brazeal has good comments on the process he uses for hardening chisels, punches etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 So, what would be the difference? I understand there's more to a hammer I.E. hammers have a tapered hole to keep it on the handle, but don't you still have to slit and drift the hole? Is there a great deal difference in the geometry or are they just specialized to the size and shape of the desired hammer eye? Thanks, Scott The difference is that I'm not just slitting and drifting a hole for a hammer like I would for a mortice. I am developing a "house" for the handle by forging the cheaks up onto the drift which enlarges the hole. The geometry is basically the same, but I start smaller than I want to end up with in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brian, The pictures alone are worth atleast 10,000 words! You did (at least in my mind) a perfect photo demo on how to make a hammer!! Thanks, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hofi's roots were in his exposure to the techniques and tools of Habermann. Hofi is the one who started spreading the steel up and down on forging hammers where in the past that was only done on smaller hammers to increase the length of the hole so it would hold the handle more securely. Brian you are a great link to Habermann, and I'm curious about his opinions and reasoning on hammer design. It is obvious that you like to shape eyes like Hofi, and that is a great way to make a hammer. Did Habermann start doing them that way after seeing Hofi do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks Scott, you should see the video. Nine heats, it can be done in seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I want to add that your photographs and descriptions of technique are wonderful. Thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 thoes pictures look the same as the article in the current Hammers blow! my question now is that long drift what did you start with what are its sizes? also your fuller what is it about 1 1/4 or so ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primtechsmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brian, This is one of the hammers the students will be able to make in November right? How about maybe a cross pien??? Do you make those as well? I can't wait to see this done in person! Peyton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hofi's roots were in his exposure to the techniques and tools of Habermann. Hofi is the one who started spreading the steel up and down on forging hammers where in the past that was only done on smaller hammers to increase the length of the hole so it would hold the handle more securely. Brian you are a great link to Habermann, and I'm curious about his opinions and reasoning on hammer design. It is obvious that you like to shape eyes like Hofi, and that is a great way to make a hammer. Did Habermann start doing them that way after seeing Hofi do that? Hofi learned this from Habermann on smaller top tools and hammers like Alrfed's famous "chiselier hammer". Hofi took it a step further and applied it to larger hammers and sledges. Hofi also made a major improvement with the geometry of his slitting chisels. This method is a very old technique that Alfred Habermann shared with hundreds of smiths at courses he taught at Helfstien Castle in the Chech Republic for over 25 years. Other smiths have also been doing this or something very similar today like Erin Simmons, Brent Bailey, and I'm sure countless others who have never had any contact with Habermann. This is an old technique that has been rediscovered by many smiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 The technique is an old one and I've wondered why it wasn't used for larger forging hammers until recently. Have you ever heard an explanation? I think that perhaps the idea of extra mass in the center wasn't ever the reason for doing it until Hofi, it was always for a better handle attachment. It is definitely extra work to make the eye of a hammer that way because if you don't start with a very undersized hole you end up with a very large eye negating the purpose-that of having extra mass in the center of the hammer. Do you fuller your hammers to lengthen them because there is a point at which they are too wobbly in flight? I have made probably 15-20 different forging hammers experimenting with different designs. I have noticed there is a point at which a short wide hammer stops bouncing straight- that is what I mean by wobbly. It seems you only want so much mass in the center. Would punching and drifting an eye without then fullering on either side of the eye give you the same result without as much work? I have always been fascinated with the blacksmith's hammer since I first got into blacksmithing. There is so much complexity in such a simple tool, and I really enjoy being able to shape steel with hammers I've made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 thoes pictures look the same as the article in the current Hammers blow! my question now is that long drift what did you start with what are its sizes? also your fuller what is it about 1 1/4 or so ? They are the same pictures, we took them a while ago. That drift started with 9" of 1-1/4" round 4140. The drift is 19" long, and I can make any size of hammer or hole with it that I would want to make. The top and bottom fullers have a 1-1/2" radius and are about 1-1/8" wide. Here are the tools needed to make that hammer on an anvil without the need for a swage block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 thanks Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brian, Nice depiction of tools, but I have a couple questions. I got the "dish" figured out. Its for shaping the face for a rounding hammer; right? But I'm not sure about the ones circled. All fullers? The one circled in yellow has a hardy shank but confused about the ones circled in blue. OR am I confused about both. (wouldn't surprise me ) Thanks again Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brian, This is one of the hammers the students will be able to make in November right? How about maybe a cross pien??? Do you make those as well? I can't wait to see this done in person! Peyton I make all kinds of hammers and top tools this same way some are more involved than others. I suggest starting with the rounding hammer because it is the simplest and can be forged to finish in the least amount of steps. The faces are forged to shape with a flatter and the cupping tool as you release the drift. I'm going to be putting a 2# chiselier hammer that Ed and I made last week in remembrance of Prof. Alfred Habermann up for auction as a donation to I FORGE IRON for the Spring Donation Drive. All proceeds will go to I FORGE IRON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 What is the "chiselier hammer"? Also, is it the grind of the slitting chisel that differentiates the one you use from Hofi's or are they the same? I hope you don't mind lots of questions thrown at you, it is wonderful to be able to discuss these things. I am always looking to understand these things better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 You answered the chiselier hammer question. It is a beautiful hammer as all that I've seen which you've made are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dodge the one in yellow is a bottom fuller 1 1/2R the fuller on the right makes a set ...I'm not sure what the ones in blue are. Brian will have to tell us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brian, Nice depiction of tools, but I have a couple questions. I got the "dish" figured out. Its for shaping the face for a rounding hammer; right? But I'm not sure about the ones circled. All fullers? The one circled in yellow has a hardy shank but confused about the ones circled in blue. OR am I confused about both. (wouldn't surprise me ) Thanks again Scott right. No, they are not all fullers. The one with the hardy shank is the bottom fuller to match the top fuller. The other two are to support the hammer while driving the drift so you don't damage the cheaks on your hardy hole. I just came up with this solution so the hammers can be done on an anvil that doesn't have a large enough hole. We used bolster blocks ["camels" as Alfred called them] or a swage block with larger holes to accomodate the cheaks before I figured this one out. These are much simpler to make than a camel and they are alot easier to lug around than a swage block, and as your hammer develops and changes where the exact support is needed they scoot over to adapt to this need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Alwin, the grind is different and the way I use it. Hofi's is a chisel; mine is a punch. I grind it basically the same except more like a cold chisel, and I drive it almost all the way from one side before I punch out the plug from the other side. Most all of my punches are ground this way no matter what shape[round, square, rectangular, etc...] I've been doing this for many years before I met Tom Clark and saw Hofi's slitters. I was excited to see someone else using the same principle; everyone thought I was crazy. There is so much less resistance this way. I have to go to work now and Email my son, Mark, and wish him a happy birthday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNeilson Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 . It looks like the temper on your entire tool is a bronzeHi blksmth, thx for your comment. As far as the temper, the pic does make it look bronze, I hardened and tempered only on the bottom 1.5 in or so after it was forged and annealed tho. I am planning on hardeneing the striking end as they are dead soft now, they`ve only been used once and you can see the upset starting to form. I am excited with the hole they produce, as ive tried just slitting and always got a rag in the hole. Ive tried a slot punch, but not with a striker and usually got it stuck or miss-aligned, just never used the two in combination before.....:)Kerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 In the book "The Artist Blacksmith" by Peter Parkinson (I think I got his name right) the author mentions how some British smiths sometimes put a cold chisel grind on their punches to make them go through metal faster. I had missed that before but noticed it after this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I am sure it has all been done before, but I had never seen it. I had been on my own before I got with Tom. The metal will teach you if you pay attention. It is quite rewarding to rediscover this "lost art"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I haven't seen it or at least I hadn't noticed it until now, so thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 a latice work from 4''x4'' and in proportion the same from 3/4'' the tungsten slitter for the hydropress and three chisels for hand forging chisel/slitter order 40 assorted diameter 1/2''-9/16''-5/8''-3/4'' 10 each and the cuting geometry.befor and after grinding the BIG 4'' was forged at my smithy by a group of 5 people three strikers 8 lbs hammer one holding the tungsten chisel and the drifts and one on the fire. the first heat took one hour then another 13 heats to finish al together 3 hours. Hofi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 three photos were missing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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