John Larson

Great that you are including all of us in your Nazel 4N adventure. Thanks. Seems to me your machine has a great pedigree according to Grant Sarver and others here, and hopefully may run great as is. If not, the California Blacksmith Association has some members (like Toby Hickman) that know big hammers. I'm in Baltimore MD and not one of them, but I've seen Toby demo at ABANA events. This web site is fabulous, but there may be some expertise in southern California. ABANA has a web site so that finding the California officers should be quite easy if needed. An apprentice of Toby's, (rick kraus?) worked with Bob Bergman in Postville, Wisconsin. He wrote a small booklet about Nazel air flows and valves and Bob sells the book along with his video about rewbuilding Nazels. So, maybe the quickest way to contact Toby is via Bob.

The electric motors in Europe run on 50 cycle current and in USA 60 cycle. The rpm of power hammer motors tends to be lower in Europe than in the USA. Tom Clark had a difficult time getting his early hammer(s) to run slow enough so he made some unique pulleys. That is not particularly germane to this conversation, I suppose. As for at least part of this conversation it is worthwhile to keep in mind that in the USA the 1800 rpm and 3600 rpm (minus slip angles that reduce rpm) can have the same torque but the faster one will have twice the hp, or they can have the same hp but the slower one will have twice the torque. HP is torque * rpm * a proportionality factor. Old time motors on Nazels ran very slow and had massive torque but not huge hp ratings. The physically huge diameter motors seen on industrial equipment astounds people who say thinigs like "It only has X hp". These motors used 3 phase current, of course, and the diameter was large to allow enough poles to permit the desired low rpm. On one of my self-contained research machines I used a 1200 rpm (minus about 100 rpm slip angle) 3 phase motor in order to get belts and pulleys to work out to get a slow enough machine without resorting to two sets of pulleys and belts with a jack shaft. And this quest for speed reduction is why spare tire hammers exist, namely, a nice diameter. That extremely clever hammer drive can be adapted to self-contained air hammers. At least I think it can; I haven't done it........yet. Finally, the Nazels hardly got above 20 to 30 psi according to my literature. But that is on one side of the piston, a below atmospheric pressure existed on the other side. If you are building a self contained hammer it is EXTREMELY important to determine how you are going to cushion the ram against the tendency to hurt itself at the top of its stroke. An air cushion won't work like on a utility hammer because of that below atmospheric pressure (aka suction). And that is why Nazel used its ambient air pressure system. The Turkish hammers sold by Clark had extra stroke room in the tup cylinder to avoid the problem and that is why he had to work hard control rpm carefully. At least that is my set of deductions after some conversation with Tom when I showed him video footage of my research machine. It may also be related to the higher pressures used in those machines, but I never set my sights on copying his machines. I built my own and did try to use Nazel ideas. I consider the Nazel design to be Beche design and I consider the low over all height achieved by the German engineers to be a technical work of art. But enough of my drivel.

My name is John Larson, I'm located in Baltimore, Maryland. I've built self-contained hammers big and small. I prefer to build and sell and use utility hammers. The amount of study and investment to build a self-contained hammer is high, but so too any style of hammer. Enjoy the journey.

I agree with Thomas Powers. Just wanted to add that a tall chimney with 10" or more of diameter will help all forge hood designs. The column of rising hot air pulls along smoke and the longer the column the better when an inefficient hood is used. Hofi wouldn't use his side drafts in his school if something was better.

I practice the golden rule, treating people like I want to be treated. That always worked in my previous careers, and seems to work now. In conversations stick to the facts, and tell the truth.

I use a recycling sandblaster with a fine mesh of Black Beauty. The cabinet&recycling are mandatory in my opinion. Nozzle design is extremely important for these machines because the nozzle's suction brings the Black Beauty from the hopper of the recycling part of the bag cabinet. I have found it important to use relatively little media in the recycling loop so that the stuff in the hose to the nozzle doesn't get packed full. Mine is very persnickety as compared to my outside pressurized sand blaster. Very annoying untill I learned how to "tune" it.

Yes, IF machining is right on etc., however the cost of trying a shim of softer metal is near zero and worth a try. On machining wedges (aka keys), one trick I've learned when an in-process wedge is a bit too thick when trial fitted and needs to advance another inch in its space to be just right, leave the height adjuster of the mill as-is and instead move the wedge one inch in the mill vise. The cut depth will be perfect because the taper of the wedge raises the surface toward the cutter. Same idea works with a surface grinder.

Glad the air tool oil is working. On the guides, synthetic materials may help IF the tup and guides are both steel and a bit galled. Steel against steel, even lubed, tends not to be the best system. I prefer malleable cast iron guides in my hammers, but doubt that kind of retrofit in a Phoenix/Bull is readily possible. You may want to remove the tup and do some micrometer measurements to assess wear. The tup has to be extremely paralled side-to-side, otherwise the guides adjusted at the top of the stroke will not be right at the bottom of the stroke. A friendly machine shop can tweak the tup as needed. The Phoenix/Bull tup and guide system is very simple and easy to work on. But one problem others have noted over the years is that the guides aren't particularly long so that it is easy to have a sloppy fit at the bottom of the stroke. Thus, if there has been wear it will tend to be located at the critical top and bottom spots. If you should find the current guides are plastic you can pretty well bet they are worn and/or mushroomed. Replaced, you're likely to have much better hammering precision.

DO NOT USE PENETRATING OIL!!!!!!!!!!! The mioracle oils will cause the synthetic rubber seals to swell. Simply use the same air tool oil that carpenters use in their tools; available everywhere in home stroes. Light oil like #10 and automatic transmission fluid work, too.

Boy this is an exciting story. Hope the crane lift is straight forward.

It may need a new shuttle valve or just a shot of air tool oil in the old one to loosen it up. I'd bet on friction causing the shuttle to move sluggishly. These valves wear out and as they do they slow down and eventually stick. The shuttle is moved by air pressure and it is also possible that something is restrictive there. The trigger valve sends air pulses to the shuttle via small air lines and the shuttle directs air into and out of the cylinder via the big hoses. I don't know the brand of your valves, but if you take it to a pneumatics store they can probably get you a replacement.

Hey, Bill, when you going to do some pictures and talking about the cnc plasma machine? Love to see & hear.

According to my library sources, the Nazel folks originally imported Beche hammers, then began manufacturing these machines. The "B" in the series 1B, 2B, 3B,... stands for Beche. So I think, Grant, that we have to give the Germans credit for the typical Nazel design and 99% of the hammer with the guided ram design, even if made in Philadelphia.

My 2 cents: Use of a piece of beer can aluminum as a shim along side the wedge can help hold it and the sow block in place because it fills in the little indentations. I got this from Brian Russell. Soft copper also works.

The valve spring idea is one I've seen, something pretty stiff. The Iron Kiss hammers use 3/4" i.d. hoses though the hose barbs have a 5/8 hole. I'm going to increase the one's on the 4" cylinders to 1" hose, but that is more than you need. Try to determine how you are going to throttle the hammer. A simple ball valve will not give you the control you need. Without control you'll not get a fun hammer. I use a proprietary design. One resourceful guy used a truck air brake valve. The trick is to get a "linear" progression in the air opening as the treadle is depressed.

My post above was not destroyed as I suspected.

Noooooooooo, the spring goes on the outside, over the rod, contacting the bottom outside of the cylinder cap as the object on the rod's threads (typically a clevise) approaches the cylinder. If the spring is put inside damage is quite likely as a consequence. On the outside you can keep an eye on wear. If you think you really want to use an internal spring, use a rubber donut of some kind about the same outside diameter as the cylinder bore. But it can bounce around and lose its original flat-to-the-piston position. Norgren makes an "ecology" (E type) cylinder that uses piston rings that overlap the piston's top and bottom so that these overlaps prevent metal-to-metal contact. I have one such cylinder and it seems to work. I almost exclusively use the EJ type cylinders with standard pneumatic piston rings and spear-into-a-hole type of air cushion where the hole has an O-ring that seals the spear as the piston approaches the top of its stroke. The captured air serves as an air spring. Most air cushions work similarly. Any kind of cushion other than that probably should be outside the cylinder like the coil spring-over-rod idea.

Boy, did you hit the nail on the head, Grant. People are always commenting on power hammer prices (hydraulic press proces, any machine's price) and the majority of them truly don't have a list of hammer attributes that are fundamental to dtermining what a machine is worth. One of my closest blacksmithing buddies first comment on almost any tool is "How much does it cost?" Meanwhile it takes him a loooong time to figure out how something works or is done. I just shake my head sometimes. Harry Truman once chastised one of his workers as knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. My easiest to sell to customers have been working smiths who saw what my machines could do compared to, say, their Little Giants.

It will run continuously with a good 5 hp 2-stage compressor. What are the die sizes on the anyang 33?

The constricted port may have been a factory machining error. If there is a second port in that cap maybe the constricted one is related to an air cushion and some parts are missing. Big Blu uses two small air lines to the caps on their 155 trying to perk it up by doubling air flow. Not a bad idea, but their lines are so small that the 155 needs more than that. But that's their bizziness. Double big air ports may not help you Al if the port from the cap into the cylinder is the bottleneck. If the cap is not related to an air cushion, then that cap center hole can be any size you want it to be. My 3.25" cylinders have a 5/8" center hole and spear related to the air cushion on the none-rod end. That is adequate. But at high pressures (150 psi) and cfm, like with a 160 pound hammer head at 3 to 4 blows per second, bigger ports will be beneficial. I've run 160 pound hammers at 150 psi with a 3.25" Norgren cylinder very effectively, but at that weight it wants 100 to 120 psi to get it running in a snappy way. Utility hammers need to be snappy to perform well. By the way, Al, Norgren sells world wide and like many manufacturers they tend to have cylinder critical dimensions that conform to the (USA)National Fluid Power Association guidelines that let stuff from different manufacturers interchange to some degree. For example, the bore size progression seems to be the same for all NFPA-conforming cylinders. Ditto cylinder wall thicknesses. But air cushion designs do not seem to be an NFPA item. In your case, like a lot of fellows do, you may want to use an external coil compression spring to decelerate the upward moving assembly so that it doesn't slam the piston into the cap. A rubber bumper from a truck suspension stop can also work--or a pair to keep the load balanced on each side of the rod.

The constricted port that you've shown is bad for hammer performance. An air cushion on the rod end is not needed with the stroke not fully used with dies touching, but it is very sensible to use some means to prevent metal-to-metal contact at the other end. The advice I give on my web site comes from 14 years of experience with air hammers in quite a few configurations and lots of investigation. The 16 to 1 weight ratio is plenty adequate.

I build power hammers that use air from your air compressor, so-called utility hammers akin to the old steam hammers. New for 2010, I am currently building a 50 pound hammer head machine with a 25:1 ratio between the hammer head and the anvil+baseplate. This makes a very stable hammer with dramatic control and hitting power. It sells for $3500 at the factory loading dock. I've posted pictures of the one-piece anvil at farwestforge.com and I post there almost daily. Feel free to contact me through my website for more information about the Octagon 50 and bigger hammers if that is of interest.

Thanks, 781 for the refernce to Bill Fiorini and the description of his process. I'm unaware of what stress proof steel is. Another related item, could an induction heater be used as the heat source in order to speed the process and allow more controlled incremental rolling of the material? "Safety is no accident."

I have had presses with the chain connectors and now use the lovejoys because log splitters use them and my farm store stocks them. They sure seem to work. As for the "notes", humor accepted. :-) I have many notebooks filled with my ramblings and sketches; find it very helpful to keep design notes and evaluations. The bottom platen on your press may need some longer guides on the sides, IMHO. I've had to learn that the hard way on my own machines. Off-center pressing will quickly inform you if its needed. On Randy McDanial's video you can see the movement.

One thing to keep in mind about the two-stage pumps is that their gpm rating is typically at 3500 rpm and not 1750. So an 11 gpm pump yields 5.5 gpm at 1750 rpm and the 16 gpm pumps yield 8 gpm at 1750. This permits gradations. For example if the motor you're using is the lower rpm, and you find the 5.5 gpm too little, you can probably change to a bigger pump cheaper than a faster motor. I have an old K R Wilson press with a 5" cylinder that is sunning just fine with a 3 hp 1750 motor running a so-called 16 gpm pump through relatively small steel lines quite effectively. But I dare not install a 6 hp 3500 rpm motor without enlarged steel lines. And my 3 hp 3500 rpm motor on the shelf might work with an 11 gpm pump with the K R Wilson lines, but I really doubt it. Just like when developing a power hammer, I'm finding that developing a press takes a good set of notes about combinations.