TASMITH

The more Canucks the more stopovers you can make on a trip down to the southern States for a visit Frosty. Heck, we might even feed ya!:D

LOL...I believe Ya Frosty...... although I'm not too sure about some other guys!

Alright! Made the search as per Frosty(resident fountain of information and enlightenment:D) and found the link!

It is www.drawmetal.com - Metalwork Design

Plug-ins for SkethUp here along with tutorials, installation instructions, samples .... the works.

Thanks frosty!

Terry

Ok. Thanks Frosty. I will do a search and if I find them I will post a link or copy of the thread. As to figuring them out... well thats half the fun.

Terry

Welcome to the best site on the web pwarber. Lots to research here.
Word of caution though! There is a Blacksmith lurking nearby that may stop in for a visit and maybe lunch! Rumour has it ,if it's close to nap time ,he may stay a little longer. Beware!

Beautiful work! An excellent combination of Blacksmithing skills combined with great visual artistic appeal. Well done Colleen.

Terry

Frosty,
I have just recently downloaded Sketchup and was going to look for the plugins for scroll work and estimators. Seeing as how you have already got them, would you mind letting me know what they are and where you found them? I have to agree with you on the ease of use of the program. After all we are not Injuneers (sic) here.....lol.
Thanks

Terry

hammerhandsyd,

When you post a question in these forums you will probably receive answers from a number of people with a range of experience and knowledge. If it is for someone like yourself that is just starting out we try and simplify explanations and recommendations for you. Quite often it may read as someone being 'peeved' but such is not the case. If you read a reply and don't quite understand what was said ask the poster to clarify it for you. We all help one another any way we can and sometimes it will be better for you to ask for a place to get more information from. There are thousands of threads on this forum, covering just about any topic and learning to do a search on it will lead you to a world of information. A lot of questions asked by 'Newbies' have been posted many times before, however that does not stop us from repeating the answers and /or pointing you toward a thread posted with the same question with the answers already posted.

This is a tremendous resource site and the answers given come from people with years of experience and are the greatest bunch of people that you will meet anywhere, all willing to share with one another. Just take the time to read and research and by all means post your questions and learn from some of the best. Welcome to the site!

Terry

I am one of the Lucky few who actually got a Blacksmith apprenticeship. I had gotten a Job at Algoma Steel (now Essar) in Sault Ste Marie Ont.,Canada. I was working in the steel mill as a Millwright Helper when the opportunity came up for the apprenticeship. There were several offered and after writing a mechanical aptitude test I was offered my choice. As Blacksmith was one of them and I had an opportunity to see the shop in operation before hand I decided to take that one. It was a perfect fit for me as I have an insatiable appetite for learning new and different things.

After 7.280 hrs of work, three years of night school, taking courses in Math, Metrics,Mechanics (math form), Blueprint reading, Fabrication, Welding and Burning, Layout and Metallurgy,and a furthter 2,500 hrs experience I got my Ticket. I was fortunate to be able to work with 5 other Blacksmiths and learn a variety of different techniques from men with years of experience. We had four hammers in the shop for forging. One was a self-contained 200# air hammer and the other three were Steam hammers run by men called Hammer Drivers. The steam hammers were 1,000 ,1500 and 3,000 pound hammers.

Each Blacksmith had a helper and the one on the biggest hammer had 2 helpers. We used large gas furnaces (forges) for most of the work but we also had two coke fired forges that we used for welding. We used to make hooks and chain links and used to weld the chain links after assembly with the hooks and chain using the coke fires. we made an endless variety of tools and things that were used all over ythe steel plant. Many of the items we made would have someone scrathing their heads in trying to figure out what the heck it was and what it was used for if it was found outside the plant. a lot of what we did there would be stories in themselves so I won't go into detail here.

Due to some economic problems I was laid off for an extended period and left the Sault to work at another plant in Gananoque Ont. This plant was a drop forging operation that produced auto parts on several drop forge hammers using closed dies and two large forging presses. i was hired as a Blacksmith for this operation and one of my primary jobs was to forge the tongs used by the operators on the hammers and presses.Each of the hammers had a four man crew. Three that did the forging and hot trimming and one who fed the hot billets to the operators from the furnaces. It was my responsibility to make all the tongs (heating, forging, and trimming) for the operation.Each hammer man(as the forgers were called) kept a pair of tongs that they used themselves. There were Six hammers and two forging presses. These were run on a three shift operation and there was always at least two hammers and on press in operation at all times and up to four hammers and two presses going at one time, and also overtime when extras may be run. Because I only worked the day shift I had to ensure that there were always spare tongs available for the back shifts. Needless to say this involved a great many pairs of tongs in circulation at all times.

I would make an average of thirty to forty pair of new tongs per week, plus repairs to tongs that would be pinched in between the dies during the week as well. This could amount to another 15 to 20 repairs a week as well or more. I also made a lot of the hand hammers. copper hammers, punches, pry bars and numerous other tools used by the maintenance, tool room, and set-up men. In addition I did all the heat treating fo the hot trimmers and cold trimmers, coining dies and other tooling for the operation as well as any tools I made. Because I was the only Blacksmith it was also up to me to design and figure out how to make special tools to do different jobs and set-ups. Quite challenging at times and always interesting.

After 22 years at this plant (and about40,000+) pairs of tongs the plant closed down. I am now retired and work out of my little Smithy here at home. Even though I worked for almost thirty years at the trade I am still as enthusiastic as ever with it. I now thoroughly enjoy reading this forum and offering my own little tidbits of information and I will continue to work at it until this old body of mine finally says enough already!

Terry

Alwin

That method of working things out as you go si what I call thinking with your hands. I find that it works quite well for me as the idea formed in my mind takes shape in the real world and I can make adjustments as I go. You are also correct in that a new idea or method of doing it comes to realization as you work. The only thing I make sure to do is make notes and maybe a sketch of what I' done for future reference. Sometimes the mind just gets too cluttered up and things get forgotten.:o

If it is the type of steel used for electrical cores,such as transformer cores, and such it will be a lower level of carbon, BUT, it will contain high levels of silicon. I am not entirely sure how this will forge weld as I have never tried it but the silicon will no doubt change the effect of the weld and perhaps make the weld joint weaker. I do know that the silicon levels are up around 5 or 6% and maybe Quenchcrack may be more up on this effect.

Terry

The 'pops' are not the result of the hydrogen and oxygen separating, they are 'steam' explosions. When you have moisture on the anvil and lay the hot steel on it you are causing the water to 'flash' to steam. Normally water boils to produce steam but with the temperature of the steel far above the normal boiling point of water (212 deg F) the water goes directly to steam with no boiling first. The steam to water ratio is about 1600 times! That is a significant change in volume and it is contained in a very small area. The 'pop' is the pressure of the expanding steam escaping.

This is a 'SIGNIFICANT' factor around molten metals of any type. I have seen and heard significant steam explosions when molten slag from steel making or iron making has been dumped and there was a VERY small amount of water trapped under it. Also have seen the roof blown off the pig cast foundry at Algoma when I worked there. Only a luck would have it no one was killed. That was from water that was in 'ONE' of the 'Pigs' as the molds are called. Surprising how much power it generates!

Terry

Ed,
You are correct in your math. This formula was designed with the idea that your scrolls would be linear. In my second post on it, I did caveat the fact that if the distance between the turns increased as you formed the scroll that it did in fact change the starting length. This is an OLD formula however that does give at least a base starting point to make a scroll and as I stated earlier it has helped me a lot. Of course with the new measuring devices available now it makes the old formulas even more obsolete, but they are still there for people to try. Sometimes its' just fun to try the 'OLD' ways.

Terry

Welcome Hugh. There are several of us all nearby to you. There are a couple of locals besides myself that are on this forum too. JCAIN is on Marble Rock Rd. off highway 32 north of Gananoque, Rickasso is in Kingston, and I am out in Lyndhurst. There are several other Blacksmiths in this area as well, so you are not alone. You can PM me anytime for more info.

Terry

Yes, some steels contain lead. It is added in the steelmaking process to improve the machinability and ductility of the steel. However it is only trace amounts that would not enter any foods. Other alloys such as chromium and nickle are just as bad as lead in their pure forms, however these are the two main ingredients in stainless steel. They are also in far greater proportion to any amount of lead added to steel and are completely harmless in steel solution. The same holds true for lead and all other alloys.

The greatest health hazard of these alloys comes when welding on them and they vaporise in the heat of the arc and become air born. That is why you should have good ventilation at all times when welding.

Terry

Forgemaster is correct Bully. In fact the air used in the blast for blast furnaces is heated to between 1600 to 2100 deg Fahrenheit before it is introduce to the furnace.

Terry

Hollis,

I have used this formula and it works well for even spaces between the scrolls. You have to fudge the starting length some though if your spaces between the spiral are expanding a bit on each turn, but it gives a pretty accurate starting point and saves a LOT of trial and error waste of stock over some of the other methods I've tried.

Terry

H13 should be cooled as slowly as possible to get maximum softness. Best to cool it in vemiculite or if not available bury in clean DRY sand. You could also bury it in fiberglass insulation if nothing else available. Yes it is air hardening , so slowing the rate of cooling is critical.

There is a mathematical formula called the Clackson scroll method.

L = Pi x s x n^2

L - represents length of stock required

Pi - 3.143 (rounded off)

s - spacing between the turns

n - number of turns in the spiral (squared)


Example: spiral with 3 turns spaced a 1/4 in apart


L= 3.143 x 0.25 x 3^2

L= 3.143 x 0.25 x 9

L= 7.071 in

Or just over 7 inches of steel to make the spiral


Terry

When you harden your steel, using the appropriate temperature and quenching medium, the steel will be at the maximum point of hardness and also be the most brittle stage. This is because of a transformation in the structure of the steel. When you heat the steel and then rapidly quench it , the steel structure remains in this transformed state. There are several technical terms for each of the states of the steel but I will not use them here to try and simplify things.

In the hardened condition the steel you heat treated is at maximum hardness. For a knife blade this means the it would theoretically maintain its edge for the longest period of use without getting dull. However the steel is also in the most brittle stage meaning it is subject to cracking or breaking with little effort. Any edge ground on the blade would simply break off.

If you re-heat the steel to a lower temperature the steel again under goes a change in structure. This change in the internal structure makes the steel somewhat softer but at the same time tougher. The steel is able to flex somewhat without breaking. These conditions are very easily seen when you harden spring steels such as 5160. Fully hardened and not temepered, spring steel will not flex if you try to bend it. It will not move at all and if enough pressure is applied it simply snaps. After tempering however it will easily flex and will in fact return to its' original position if not over flexed. This shows the difference between hard and tough.

Double and triple tempering of steel is generally done with alloy steels. Plain carbon steels and silicon based spring steels don't generally benefit from a second tempering and a third tempering is not required at all. In plain carbon steels the transformations from the hardened condition structure to the tempered condition occur in the first temper. The greater the tempering temperature or the longer it is held at temperature does however have a great effect on the steel. The higher the tempering temperature the less hardness and greater toughness is produced in the steel and vice- versa.

Also the longer the steel is held at the tempering temperature the less hardness and greater toughness is induced in the steel. This would be the same effect as double or triple tempering the steel. The difference between plain carbon steels and alloy steels is the alloys will raise the initial temperature required to harden the steel and the alloys go into solution with carbon and iron in the steel producing a different type of structure. These alloys cause a different type of transformation when the steel is tempered leaving a mixed structure in the steel. They therefore must be double or triple tempered to change all of the mixed structures into the same structure required in the final product.

Heat treating steels, especially the alloys requires a good understanding of what happens to the steel when it under goes these various transformations and in the case of alloys, you must know what change each alloy has on the steel both individually and in combination with other alloys.

That is why most individuals work mainly with plain carbon or low alloy steels. You only need to be aware of the carbon content, proper quenching medium, hardening temp. (which remains relatively constant with just carbon and minor amounts of alloys), and the correct tempering temperature to achieve the level of hardness/toughness required in the final product.

There are also two simple rules when heat treating plain carbon steels.

When heating to harden: Soak steel for 10 min/in of thickness once steel has reached hardening temperature.

When tempering: Soak steel for 1 hr/in thickness once steel has reached tempering temperature then air cool to room temperature.

This is a VERY simplified explanation of heat treating. There are a number of good sites on the web that explain what happens when heat treating steel along with the proper terminology for each of the conditions and many of them are written in easy to understand language. A lot of the knife maker websites in particular have written simple to understand basic heat treating articles and are well worth reading for anyone interested in basic heat treating.

Terry

Very well done! A lot of work in that but obviously a labour of love. Great!

Terry

I have worked with large steam powered hammers where I took my apprenticeship at a major steel mill. Yes that hammer would be underpowered by far just using compressed air. The largest steam hammer in our shop was a 3000# chambersburg and the steam to operate it was supplied at 250# sq/inch. The hammer had about a six foot stroke and with the steam opened up it would bite an inch into a 14 inch square billet on one stroke. The base for the anvil of the hammer was a 40 ton ingot buried about seven feet down. When we forged the large billets for mill rolls, or large overhead crane hooks, the vibrations would be felt all through the shop floor not to mention through the bodies of the Smiths and helpers working the job. Very challenging work.

This is almost unbelievable! See how all of the balls wind up in catcher cones!

This incredible machine was built as a collaborative effort between the Robert M. Trammel Music Conservatory and the Sharon Wick School of Engineering at the University of Iowa.
Amazingly, 97% of the machine components came from John Deere Industries and Irrigation Equipment of Bancroft, Iowa.... Yes, farm equipment!

It took the team a combined 13,029 hours of set-up, alignment, calibration, and tuning before finally filming this video but as you can see it was WELL worth the effort. It is now on display in the Mathew Gerhard Alumni Hall at the University and is already slated to be donated to the Smithsonian.

YouTube - Amazing Music Machine FULL MOVIE

Steve is right Frosty. They do add powdered coal to the mix when making briquet's.They also add a bit of limestone to the mix. That is what the white powder residue is that you see as they begin to burn and what is left over after the charcoal has burnt out.

Terry

This steel is a very high alloy steel(M classification). It contains high carbon,chromium, tungsten and cobalt. It is meant to hold an edge even at elevated temperatures (1200+ F) at the working edge and still remain sharp. It is extremely difficult to forge, with a very tight tolerance in heat range when forging. If you overheat it will crumble under the hammer and if too cold it will split. I have made carving knives for wood carving from then but the blades are kept under three inch max in length. They air harden up to 65-67 RC. They can be sharpened to a razor edge and maintain that sharpness when carving for a long time.

I would NOT recommend this for normal knives nor would I recommend someone who has not worked any of the alloy tools steels before to attempt to work with it. It requires very specific heating methods to heat it for forging in the first place and as stated before forges in a very narrow temp. range. Heat treating this still also requires very specific heating and cooling methods and requires a very high triple temper after hardening. Not recommended for inexperienced people at all.

Terry