TASMITH

Looking good Brian. Gives old blacksmiths like me a chance to try something new! After all the tongs I've made over the years it is refreshing to try some of the things that others have done. Thank you.

Terry

It depended mainly on what I was forging at the shop I worked in. I generally wore the two finger welder mitts when making tongs but that was to protect my hands from the heat of my furnace. My furnace was an industrial size capable of heating three 4" rd billets at a time if needed. I didn't forge the billets myself but often times heated them for the set-up men for trying out the dies on the big hammer. Sometimes it would take two days to make a complete change over on the big hammer and trim press. It took 8 hours of preheat time to get the furnace for that hammer up to heat so they would bring a half dozen billets over to my fire to heat them. As my fire was always running at those temperatures (around 2200 deg F) and being the size it was, you had to wear gloves to be able to get any steel out for forging.

Now that I am working just at home with my 'little' forge, i only wear the glove on my holding hand. Some old habits are just hard to break I guess, but I do get much better hammer control without a glove.

Terry

I don't know how much power they consume but I do know that when we put a new addition on one of our plants and installed three Lasco hammers each with their own Induction heating coil units Ontario Hydro run a seperate high voltage transmission line into the plant to supply the power. I do know that they convert the power input to an extremely high frequency and that they could heat an 1 1/2" rd bar from room temperature to 2250 deg F in under 20 seconds! They used to run about 3 1/2 bars of 1 1/2" rd per minute when forging large connecting rods in the hammer.

Terry

Correction on youtube link has been made here for the power hammer link

YouTube - Chambersburg Air Hammer Forging Wedgeblade

The attached pictures are of some of my tongs I used at my last job and still use on occasion in my forge here at home. The tongs in these pictures are of some of the ones I used to make the tongs for the hammer men on my own little power hammer. My own power hammer in the shop was a 200# Chambersburg with flat dies measuring about six inches wide (front to back) by eight inches long.The link here to youtube shows the same hammer as the type I used except, I had a foot control to run the hammer myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch

I formed the eye for the tongs using a simple block of steel 1" wide X 3'' long x 3/4" thick. I used this for all tongs, irregardless of size. To form the jaws I used a 'V' block with 3 different sizes of 'V' and a handled round bar of the correct size to form rounded jaws followed by a handled 'V' block to form jaws for square fitting tongs. Large diameter heater tong jaws (over 2") were drawn under the hammer then shaped by hand on the anvil prior to fitting on the tongs. I didn't use any swedges on the hammer but merely drew the reins of the tongs out and rounded them up on the flet hammer dies.

The tongs in this picture have heavier reins than I normally make for hand forging as they had to stand up to considerable use on the power hammer. The ones pictured here I have had for twenty five years now and other than the occasional adjustment are as made originally even after having been used to make thousands of other pairs of tongs. I worked alone all the time and very rarely needed an extra pair of hands.

In the first picture the tongs are (listed left to right);
1/4" rd chain link tongs
Hot inspector tongs (used to pick-up individual hot forgings for inspection)
1/4" square stock
1" rd stock
1 1/4 rd stock
Pick-up tongs (personal)
2" sq stock

All of these tongs were ones I used on my hammer. The tongs for the hammer men were made the same way only bigger to suit their own job, but the same technique and tools used were the same. All of these tongs and all the others I made were made from 1141 steel (C - 0.37 - 0.45, Mn- 1.35 - 1.65, P - 0.04 max, S - 0.08 - 0.13)
C - carbon content
Mn - Manganese
P - Phosphorous
S - Sulfur (re-sulfurized steel)
They are not heat treated in any way other than letting them air cool naturally after forging. They retain a good toughness and spring to the handles as forged and cooled.The tongs I made for all the drop hammers (3,000 to 5.000 # range) all had handles (reins) about 36" to 40" max in length. All the heater tongs had reins about 60" to 70" long. The tongs used on the 10,000 # air hammer were only 28" to 32" long due to the fact that the operators worked in close to the dies in order to operate a foot treadle to run the hammer. The tongs for the forging presses were also considerably lighter than the hammer operator tongs due to the different operation of a forging press as compared to a hammer. Also most of the forgings on the presses used the smaller diameter stock (0.843" to 0.954") as they were used primarily to forge connecting rod caps.

All reins on my tongs are round and the only exception was for heavier stock tongs (3" -4" rd) used on the large forging hammer, in which case I would assemble the tongs and then slightly flatten the top part of the reins near the eye (about 6" - 8") to give them greater strength to twist the forging up out of the die between blows to clear scale. All the reins on all my tongs ranged from 1/2" rd by the eye, down to between 3/8" to 1/4" rd at the ends.

The jaws on the forging tongs were never more than a 1/4" thick and for round stock were 2 1/2 to 3" max in length. The heater tongs for the larger round billets (2 1/2 to 4" rd) were longer of course to help compensate for the larger size and weight. Pick-up style heater tongs were tapered form about 5/8 " to about 1/2" in 8" before bending the ends 90 deg and fitting them for the appropriate size bar.

This is just a brief run through of how I make them. I also grind the inside faces of the eye of the tongs in a particular way to give a better fit and clearance on the jaws. I will do a blueprint of making my tongs with all the steps including forging, grinding, fitting and such when I hacve the opportunity to work on a little power hammer and someone to take pictures of each step. Hopefully it will be in the near future.

Terry

Welcome to the forum. This is one of the best places to get information. Lots of people on here doing all aspects of the trade. However if you are a 'true newbie' and haven't had any experience in forging you might better start with the basics. Lots of info here about building your first forge(gas or coal) and lots of info for people just starting out. Plenty of knife makers on this forum, however if you are not experienced in forging it would be best to begin at the 'beginning' to develop the skills necessary to be a knife maker.

Also go to your user control panel and update your location. If we know where you are we may be able to point you toward a Blacksmith in your area or help with locating tools and supplies.

Terry

Very nicely done Nelson!.Nice to see the mix of wood and steel and the obvious talent in working with both to create something unique. Excellent work!

Tery

Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of any of their tongs they used myself, but I am trying to track down some more pictures. They wouldn't allow us to bring cameras into the plant and any pictures taken were either done by the company for promotional purposes, or for quality control. If I can track down some more pictures I will post them.

Frosty, Family heirlooms? ya right. All the older hammer men did take care with their tongs, but unfortunately with only a 1/2" to 3/4"(max) length to use as a 'tong hold' on most of the forging bars it was quite common to pinch the ends of the jaws between the dies. The square tong hold on the big hammer was only used on bars bigger than 2 1/2" round. All others were just the 1/2 to 3/4 grip for a tong hold. All the stock used for all jobs in the shop was round and ranged from 0.843" up to 4" in diameter and all sizes in between. Lengths ranged from 14" to 27" long for bars. You can see the end of the billet that was the tong hold for the chrysler rod with the flash. That was the average tong hold the men had per bar.

The tongs I made had to grip a bar by that amount ONLY. You can imagine what kind of pressure needed to be applied to only 3/4" of a 1 1/2" rd bar by 16" long (8#) to keep it straight while you forged it to shape in a closed die. That size and length of bar was used in a four impression die (edger, blocker,rougher and finisher) to make yokes for universal joints. It took anywhere from 7 to 9 blows to make one set of three yokes per bar. They had to lift the forgings from one impression to the other as well as lift them between blows to clear the scale from the impressions with scale blowers.

The jaws on the tongs I made were approximately 2 1/2 to 3" in length and sized to fit a particular bar being forged. The handles(reins) averaged about 36" long and tapered from a max 1/2" thick up at the eye to 3/8ths to 1/4" at the ends of the handles and weighed about 4 to 6 lbs. Some hammer men liked them lighter and others a bit heavier but never more than about 6#. There were usually three hammer men and one heater on each crew and each hammer had a pair of heater tongs and for some jobs separate trim tongs at each unit. There was always at least 4 and at time 6 hammers and one or both forging presses running at a time. They also worked three shifts and some weekends overtime while I worked one shift, Monday to Friday.All the hammer and press operators kept their own forging tongs locked up when not working plus a spare for each size of bar used in forging. That meant that I had to keep a good supply of spares for each job on a rack for use in the off shifts in the event somebody smashed() a pair of tongs or pinched the ends of them.

This resulted in my making about six new pair of forging tongs per day plus repairs. In addition I also made replacement heater tong, as the jaws would eventually crack and deteriorate with the constant heating and quenching of the tongs themselves. The furnaces were large rotary hearth furnaces with the hearth being about 12 to 16 FEET in diameter and the furnace set around 2250 Deg. F. It didn't take too many bars for the jaws of the heater tongs (shaped like pick-up tongs) to get red and needed to be quenched every few bars. This thermal shock created severe checking in the steel of the jaws and eventually needed to be replaced. And again, they were all different sizes to accommodate the various bar diameters.

I worked there for 22 years and estimate I had made between 50 and 60 THOUSAND pairs of tongs and countless repairs. I also made most of the hand hammers, pry bars, chisels and numerous other tools used by the set-up men (who set dies in the hammers) and the maintenance men and various other tools for the tool room and cold work finishing dept. as well. I was also responsible for all the heat treating of various tools, cold coining dies, hot trimmers etc. used in the shop, so I wasn't just a tong maker.

I do have some pictures of tongs that I used myself to make the tongs for the shop and for my own use. They look somewhat different from any others I have seen and I will post the pictures and a bit of an explanation of why I make them that way. It is the same type and way that I made the hammer mens tongs and heater tongs as well so you will get an idea of what they looked like.

Terry

I thought perhaps you might like to see a couple of pictures from the last place I worked. The hammer in use in the picture is a 10,000# air operated hammer used to make the largest forgings in the shop. The item being forged in the one picture is a "Contact". This was a part used in the smelting operations of aluminum that we made for ALCAN. The bar being forge was 3 " in diameter by 27" long and weighed approximately 54#. This is a closed die operation and there was a trim flash that was hot trimmed after forging.

I didn't run any of these hammers myself. My job was to make all the tongs for the hammer men, heaters and trim operators.One end of the billets forged in the big hammer was pressed between a pair of flat dies to form a tong hold on the billet. The tong hold was approximately 2 1/2" square and I fit the jaws of their tongs to it. The heaters tongs were made to fit the full 3" rd billet and had handles(reins) approximately 5 ft in length. The furnace to heat the billets was to the left of the picture and the large hot trim press was to the right.

Also pictured are some of the smaller auto parts we made in the plant as well. Some were made on drop hammers, some on LASCO (Hydraulic) hammers, and others on either the 1,500 or 2,000 ton forging presses. I made all the tongs for all the hammers, heating furnaces and presses.The last picture in the series shows the backside of the big forging hammer. The trim press is on the left side and the furnace is to the right back in behind the hammer. The two bins out front were the scrap hoppers for the trim flash from the forgings.

If requested I can write more on these things and see if I can track down more pictures.

Terry

Beautiful work Alexandr! You will fit in nicely with this site. Well done!

Terry

Mines about thirty feet away. I also use one half of my two car attached garage as a cold work welding area( weld just outside garage door. My forging shop is out in the open. House and shop sit about dead centre of ten acres with about eight acres of open grass all around. No problem with smoke or noise bothering the neighbours.

Terry

Welcome Shadetree to one of the best sites of its kind anywhere. Frosty is our resident watchdog for user locations and he is right. If you give us a good idea of where you are we can often point you to good sources for tools, supplies and local area Blacksmiths and associations.

Terry

Welcome Molinero. You don't have to feel it is a privilege to take part in this forum.We are just all ordinary folk who share a common interest(addiction)! Anyone is welcome here to share their ideas and learn from others. Just treat it like an open school with free education

Welcome to the site Alexandr. Some of our english isn't the best either and it's our native tongue!

Terry

OH-oh. That sounds like the first stages of addiction! I have a feeling that there is gonna be some pics and a ton of questions coming our way!
Well, all I can say is.... GO FOR IT!

Terry

Welcome to the site Joe. Your are in good company here! Yes we do love pictures and questions and yes, even answers! It's a great place.:)

Welcome fellow Canuck. You have joined one of THE best forums on the web. Don't worry about spelling and typing errors. If you got the boot for that there wouldn't be many people left on here:o. This is a great place to learn and an incredible place to socialize.

Terry

Well now> Whats wrong with those? It is an excellent start! You have learned a lot already in your first attempt. Like you said, you see how the fire works, the steel moves, hammering technique! These are ALL important first steps and you apparently have applied a lot of what you read. Good for you!
Keep practising, the more you do the more your skills improve and keep researching and asking questions. As one member here on the forum says "We can give you the answers and if we don't know, well, we can always make something up!":D
Good work and happy hammering!

Terry

Ten Hammers is right. I make notes and little sketches of each new thing I make. even if it is a different type of scroll or twist. It is suprising the number of times I've looked through my notes and discovered something I made that I thought I had just come up with the idea. It is especially helpful when you get a bit 'OLDER'....LOL. I have an 1 1/2" binder of sketches and a 3" binder of notes and am soon goint to have to start a couple of new ones.
It is amazing to realize how many weird and wonderful things you have made already and would otherwise not remember what is is or what it was made for. It sure helps to keep you from re-inventing the wheel sometimes.:o

A project made for a family member(especially one of Dads Girls) is always special no matter what it is! It looks like you have set yourself a challenge but it is one from the heart and I am certain it will turn out beautifully. Keep us posted on your project, ask your questions and post your pictures. It certainly looks like an excellent beginning. Keep up the good work and happy hammering!

Terry

Welcome to the forum. This is a great place to learn and make connections. Take your time, explore the site, learn your way around. The home page of this site is the best place to start. Enjoy!

Terry

Welcome to the forum Elizabeth. You have found probably the best possible place for some of your research. The people on here are more than willing to help, as you no doubt have noticed. Thomas Powers is our resident historian, and I think you have probably got yourself in for a real history lesson. There are i numerous numbers of skilled people here that cover just about every aspect of the trade there is and all willing to offer up any help to everyone who asks.
We also have some noted humorists on this site as well that can add a little flavour(I think you know who you are:D).
One thing for sure you can count on is almost everyone here encouraging you to try your hand at blacksmithing yourself.It is a great way to get an understanding of what can be accomplished with minimal tools and a willingness to get the job done.

Terry

Congratulations! It feels pretty good to make that first project. Gets the blood to pumpin and makes a feller wanna do more! Take a picture of it if you can and post it. We love pictures, ESPECIALLY of the very FIRST project someone has done. We don't want to CRITICIZE it, we just like to see it! We have all made what we consider our very first "Ugly Duckling" but it is after all THE very first thing we ever made and have gone on from there.You first learned to, roll over, crawl, then stand,walk and finally run. Same thing here.

Terry

I have to agree with Thomas on this one for sure. Unless you Know specifically what the re-bar is for you are taking your chances. I have worked with some that was a soft as any mild steel you could find , and ohter stuff that would only bend when heated and was harder than H*** when it cooled and just snapped! Stick with steel you know what it is and you will be a lot further ahead of the game.

Terry

This is how we Canadians honour our service people that gave their lives in the service of their country. I know that most Canadians are aware of what this is, and it was featured on one of the US news networks one time I know of as well.
All the fallen soildiers are flown into Canadian forces airbase inTrenton, Ontario. They then travel by motorcade to Toronto where they are then sent to their hometown to be laid to rest. There are approximately 50 overpasses between Toronto and Trenton and everyone of them, IRREGARDLESS of the weather conditions, are packed with ordinary people of all ages and representatives of the police and fire Dept. of each area for each and every motorcade that passes by.In addition. people stop their cars and or stand on the roadside as the motorcades pass by. I feel that there is no better way to Honour those who gave their lives for freedom and I believe that in their heart ALL these Canadians are also Honouring those in service from ALL countries that gave their lives as well, when they are standing there.

I have attached a link to a youtube presentation of one of the processions. There are others as well. I had the occasion not long ago to be down in that area and was one of the many who stood on an overpass and watched a procession go by and I can safely say it was one of THE most moving experiences of my life and I thought I would share a little bit of what I saw


YouTube - Fallen Canadian Heros

Proud to be Canadian!

Terry