maddog

I've bought from BB. They are a legit outfit and serious about providing good tools to blacksmiths. However, I did buy a forged 2.5 lbs Hofi hammer from BB and was a bit disappointed in the quality of finish. For the price I expected something nicer. But I got the forged version. I hear the cast ones are nicer. But that doesn't change my opinion that they are good people to do buisiness with.

Perhaps you meant "The mass of the object times the square of its velocity divided by two gives the total energy in watt seconds or joules" KE=1/2 M V^2 You've obviously put serious effort into investigating this and done some actual research too. That's a real shot in the arm for this thread where up till now all we've had were opinions. Thank you! If I understand you, your main point is that its not enough to consider just the energy you build up in the hammer head but you must also take into account the efficiency with which this gets transferred to the work piece. The workpiece can be viewed as a stack of plates and when the hammer strikes it sets up a train of collisions. In an elastic collision, the more massive you are, the more energy you transfer to the other obect. So at point of impact, the bigger hammer will deliver more of its energy to the workpiece. This point has been completely overlooked till now.

No I don't take this personaly It's just that I find the level of caution and alarm in this thread incongruous and disproportionate. After years of people talking about warming their small tanks in tubs of water we suddenly get bothered about a little warm air. Well OK if we are now going to consider the topic at large. Should people be putting their tanks in baths of warm water at all? Perhaps people simply shouldnt be using 20lb propane tanks at all for their forges. It's worth thinking about. Propane is dangerous and many members of this forum use it. It would be a valuable thing if we took a close look at the common practices with propane in smiths' shops. I personally am concerned about the exposed fuel lines in the presence of hot iron. I think they should be protected. But so far no one has explained what the danger is from warming the tank if this is done with reasonable caution. Sure it's not ideal and it's inconvenient. And if I were buying propane tanks today I would do it differently. But It didn't work out that way and now I have a herd of small tanks. I am not going to spend $400 to revamp my setup right now. Not unless I am convinced there is a significant risk involved. As for refills, I just take them to be filled all at the same time. It's not enough to say the tanks weren't designed for that kind of draw. We are smiths we think for ourselves. We often use things in ways that werent intended by the manufacturers and we take pride in it. OSHA and general safety regulations are written with a very broad brush. If I am not running a commercial outfit and am not forced to comply with these regs, I can make a more fined grained and intelligent decision. I don't see the point in slavishly following OSHA regulations. The small tanks aren't speced to draw at this rate because they can freeze up. They are designed to handle a certain temperature and pressure and as long as they stay within their limits they are quite safe. Freezing tanks could cause an accident. If the pressure drops and the flame goes out while the unit is unattended and somehow the tank starts warming again and releases unburnt propane. Could happen. If you are writing a policy for the whole population you have to worry about such possibilities. You certainly cant tell people its ok to warm up their tanks. Some idiot will put one on the stove. These tanks are used at barbecues where kids and dogs are running around. People are sometimes drunk. On the subject of manifolds I am curious to know if this is an approved procedure and if there are any special requirements for their construction? I agree we should consider the dangers carefully. But let's make a reasoned, intelligent assesment of the risks.

Are you saying that your forge is built inside a 6" stove pipe?

That describes my experience. I bought a Hobart 110V MIG unit. It was great! Could do a surprising amount of work and the 110v meant I could take it anywhere there was a power outlet. But in the end, it wasn't up to my needs in metal shop and I couldnt justify keeping it after I bought a professional class stick welder. My IdealArc 300 is a joy to use. Whatever I want to make, its up for it! It' only limitation, like any stick machine, is thin stuff. But I have that covered with my torch. I wouldn't consider buying a wire feed or mig from any but the top mfrs. Lincoln, Miller etc. It's far too complicated and fiddly. As for selling children, they don't fetch much I'm afraid. Tools are always worth money. I got a decent price for the Hobart when I parted with it. :lol:

I just don't agree with this. What I am doing is really no different than putting a tank in a tub of warm water. I am not heating the tank above its safe operating temp (about 100F) in fact the blower keeps it cooler than a tub of warm water. It just doesn't feel cold to the touch. I am not raising the pressure inside the tank to anything abnormal. It's at the right temp and the right pressure. What's the problem? If I were running a commercial shop I would invest in a professional class propane system. I would also make sure that my plumbing and venting was strictly up to code and that the forge was an approved device with the appropriate safety features. To buy a couple of 24 gal tanks, or to have a permanent tank installed runs about $400 right now. And I suspect my county ordinances wouldnt allow a permanent installation in a residential area. I own 8 5gal tanks which I would have to discard. How much barbecue can one person eat? I am doing what thousands of other hobby smiths are doing. Running my forge off small tanks and solving the problem of freezing by adding a moderate amount of heat. People seem to think I lit a camping stove under the tank or put it on an electric hot plate. It's a hand drier for crying out loud. Its not even as hot as a hair dryer. It's like a warm summer breeze. Come on guys. Let's get real here.

I completely agree with Phil's comments about chamber size. This is the most common beginner mistake and it's a trap. It's a natural thing to think one wants a forge that can do it all. No one forge can do it all. When you come up against that odd job that cant be done in your forge, you make a pile of firebrick and kaowool and stick your burner in it. But the main thing is that you dont yet have experience with how to use a forge in different ways. With a 6"x8" forge you can forge a whole gate with large scrolls none of which can fit inside the chamber. If you heat up 24" of steel to welding heat in order to forge a sword you will find yourself holding onto the end of an extremely hot, limp noodle! It will be uncontrolable. Hand forging is done on sections of 3" - 6" of hot steel at a time. As for insulation: the refractory doesnt count for much. You need at least 2" of wool. I run my forges very hot most of the time. With just 2" of wool, the shell on my forge gets hot enough to boil water instantly, which is not a big deal but it would be better to trap that heat too. If you go for a 3rd layer of insulation, it doesnt have to be wool since the temp at that point is comparatively low. I use a mix of broken firebrick and scrap pieces of wool. Vermiculite or Perlite mixed with cement would be cheap and work. Except, as I said, if the hot gases escape into that region it makes a mess. I use thin galvanized 6" stove pipe to make the inner shell for my casting forms. I think Phil is saying the same thing. A 12" shell, frinstance a small freon tank, with a 6" chamber will give you a 3" void to fill with insulation and refractory. You must have a way to block up the ends or you will spend a fortune in propane trying to keep it hot and it may not weld that way.

It makes no sense to put refractory outside kaowool. It has little insulating value and its main purpose in the forge is to make a durable inner liner. You will need to close off the ends of the forge or you will have trouble getting it hot. 24"x6" is kind of long and narrow for a single burner port. The heat will be very uneven. If you must go with that length, consider a dual burner setup. Perlite would work as an outer layer, but if it gets too hot, it will make a sticky mess. It's just glass. Inner refractory materials should be rated at least 2600F. 3000F is better. Cement by itself does not make good castings. Some cements can be mixed with refractory material to make a plastic mix. You might be able to apply it onto the kaowool as a thick coating. Refractory in forges is usually cured buy letting it dry completely in a warm environment. After that, you can bake out most of the water by heating it *slowly* to 500F in an oven or similar. The rest is done by firing the forge multiple times with rest periods in between and getting it a little hotter each time.

Yeah the valve stems are tough to remove. I've done it just the way arftist described and I consider that perfectly safe. But why scrap a perfectly good propane tank. When you get your forge going, you will be glad to have a spare tank when you big one runs out. Try for a freon tank. I got one once from an auto shop. A 5 gal drum will work fine too.

I would go with a porcelain slip or add extra alumina to the kaolin. You can get it cheaply from the pottery supply houses. I expect it will be very friable. Cracks in the coating expose the wool to hot gas which damages it quickly. The only coating that I know of that will hold together as a thin layer is Plistix 900. I like the refractory inner liner with 2" kaowool or some other high insulation value material for the outer layers. Its a little slower to heat up but much more durable. I also use scrap kaowool or soft firebrick rubble for the outer layers. All the forges I have built with wool as the inner liner needed constant maintenance. If you are just forging blades I guess it's ok but when you have bendy pieces going in and out, protecting the liner is difficult.

Actually using a large tank is just treating the symptoms. The cause of freezing is heat being drawn from the cylinder faster than it can be replaced. A warming blower addresses that directly. So does a bath of hot water. Large tanks work because they have a greater thermal mass which usually doesnt get depleted in a day's work. In my shop, *any* size tank will freeze in cold weather. Plus I dont have the $$ to go buy a couple of 24gal tanks. I run a small forge but I run it hot. A 5 gal tank lasts me about 8hrs. This is a thermostaticaly controled blower designed to produce air at a temperature that is comfortable for the skin. Even without thermostat control, the blower simply doesnt produce enough heat to get the tank hot. The pressure relief valve opens at 375 psi. The vapor pressure of propane at 100F (quite a bit hotter than my system) is about 200 psi. There is absolutely no possiblity of the tank bursting. The worst that could happen is that the relief valve starts cycling and bleeding gas out of the tank. That too could be serious if it went unnoticed. But as I said, my setup doesn't come close. Finally, as Thomas pointed out, the blower only runs when the tank is drawing which means I am only warming it when it's cooling.

A power hammer would be great. I have all the steel and parts to make one and I really wish I could set one up but I live in a residential neighborhood so I have to do all my drawing out by hand. With proper technique it's possible to draw out stock with just hammer and anvil quite efficiently. I recommend watching one of Hofi's videos where he shows how to draw using the edge of the anvil together with the edge of the hammer face as fullers to move the metal fast. It doesn't take long to learn and you don't have to adopt his whole "system" to use this method. I would bet serious money that I could pull that bar out and round it up in less than 45 mins. I don't say this to brag. I'm nothing special. Just to point out that the technique can make a big difference.

Nice piece of work! I would expect to pay something like $150 - $200 retail for an item of that quality.

It's great that you have access to metal working tools. Makes life a lot easier. Personaly I think a forced air burner is a good choice especialy for a first forge. Temperatures inside a forge can reach 2600F or even higher. Most other "hot crafts" like aluminum casting or pottery don't work in this regime. Many home made refractory recipe are designed for a much lower temp range. Ordinairy tiles will turn into soup. So will a lot of fire brick thats not rated for these temps. If you use firebrick in your forge, you want the soft light crumbly kind. They are not cheap. Generally you want at least two preferably three inches of refractor and insulation. Hard refractory is not a great insulator but Kaowool is. A common design is an inner core of cast refractory wrapped in one or two inches of wool. I recommend you buy a bag of Mizzou and some kaowool. You can get them on ebay at reasonable prices. You are new to forges. Why make life more difficult for yourself experimenting with stuff you dont properly understand yet? The forge shell need not be heavy steel. Old freon tanks are a popular choice. A common mistake with first forge projects is to build something that is too big, and often too complicated. A big chamber will be harder to get up to forging and welding temps. I've seen some projects fail completely this way. After working with a small forge for a while you will learn how to use it and you will be surprised at how versatile it is. I am not a blade maker but I doubt you need 24" of hot steel all at once. Most hand forging is done a few inches at a time. I recommend a small chamber no larger than 6"x12". This means your shell should be 12" dia. I like 5"x8" for a chamber size and I can forge a gate with that! If your primary interest is blade making, you should really look at Don Fogg's knife making forge and either copy it or at least use it as a starting point. In general I urge you to stick to a tried and true design for your first forge. Making a forge is not hard but most people don't have experience working with such high temps and there are lot of things you can do wrong. Browse through the "my first forge" threads on this forum and you will see how often this happens. My own first attempt was a failure for the same reasons. Good luck :)

I already posted this thread but it seems to have vanished into the Twilight Zone, so if this is a duplicate, I apologize. I am fed up with this bidniss of propane tanks in a water tub. On a full day of forging, even in the summer, I have to replace the water with fresh warm water several times. If I leave it too long, I have to fight a thick jacket of ice on the tank. In the winter, if I forget to take the tank out when I leave, I have a tank and a tub frozen together in a large block of ice. Space is very tight in my shop, the tub takes up extra floor space that I cant afford. It's large and awkward to carry when its half full of water. I don't have the space to manifold several tanks together and I doubt that would work in the winter. Yesterday I took the guts of one of those hot air hand dryers they install in public restrooms and set it to blow on the tank. No more frost!! None!. It's hooked to the blower switch so I dont have to think about it when I start the forge. Without the water tub, the tank and the blower fit neatly under my forge table, saving a lot of space. I am guessing that the hot air blower runs less watts than an ordinairy hair dryer. More volume at lower temps. It's thermostaticaly controled. I haven't tried this out in sub freezing weather but if need be, I can move the thermostat to get warmer air. As it is the propane tank is pleasantly warm to the touch. The thread was removed due to concerns about safety. The post DID NOT vanished into the Twilight Zone. We were consulting a propane dealer to get their opinion so we could return that information from a known source.

After burning myself several times (I'm a slow learner) I trained myself to automaticaly quench the tong jaws before putting them down regardless of whether they got hot or not. To me that seems easier than finding another way to store them. Storing tongs hanging on a rack about waist high is simple and natural. It's probably not a good idea to quench spring fuller jaws this way if they get really hot unless they are made of MS.

It's worse in the winter of course but it's a problem even in the summer. I am totaly fed up with schlepping tubs of water. If I forge all day, I have to refresh the water at least once. If I leave it till I see the pressure fall, I have to melt off the thick jacket of ice that's formed. If I dont remove the tank when I leave and leave it overnight, I have a propane tank in a large block of ice. I dont have room in my shop for multiple tanks. I don't even have the extra room for the water tub. Anyway, I got the guts of one of those hot air hand driers that they use in public restrooms and set it up to blow on the propane tank. No more frost!! The tank is pleasantly warm to touch. I set it up to run off the same switch as the forge blower and now that there is no tub, the tank and the blower fit neatly under the forge table so its all very compact. I estimate the blower runs lower wattage than a regular hair drier. More vol, lower temp. It's thermostat controled. Today wasn't very cold. If it's not hot enough to overcome sub zero weather, I will move the thermostat.

Yes. I believe I own one. I still owe you pix of that Stewart. Some technical difficulties

I really like your design idea of separating the top die from the driving end. Seems it would be less work to make the dies much easier to store them. Looks like it was hard to get in with the MIG to weld the angle iron onto the 1/2" strap. I'd be inclined weld a couple of pieces across the gap for bracing. Probably unecessary. It's just my urge to overbuild speaking . I think I have to copy your die design. I think yours is the first candle holder I have ever liked. I generaly dont care for candle holders but yours is so elegant and graceful.

Interesting. I have a bunch of 2" hydraulic cylinder rods. I tried to find out what kind of steel they are and all I could find was a wikipedia article which said mild steel. I must try quenching some. Any ideas for using the cylinder itself?

There are many paths to welding. Starting with gas is just one way. But I agree that there are a lot of advantages to starting with a torch. You can weld, braze, cut and bend with a torch rig. True the gas bottles are ****** dangerous but you are going to end up buying it anyway. It's hard to imagine a metal working shop without at torch. So why not buy it up front? Not only will you get welding but all the other functions too. Gas welding is more difficult than MIG and if you just want to get welding quickly it may not be the best choice. But if you do invest the time you get a great return. It's quiet and much more relaxed than arc welding. No nasty UV. No cumbersome hood. Few sparks. You can see exactly what you are doing which means you can see how the puddle behaves. You learn a lot about manipulating a puddle and penetration. You can take your time. You have to learn heat management. Yes this is more of a problem with gas than other processes but you need this skill for all of them. You can do very small stuff and very thin sheet metal. I can weld 025 MIG wire together with my smallest torch. Gas or TIG make it easy to weld small leaves onto a main branch or repair cracks that might appear in your work. Heavy stuff is a PITA but it is possible. I have one stick welder, an IdealArc 300, a small Harris oxy acet torch, an AllStates propane torch, a Smith Little Torch and a Smith air acet torch. I use them all.

To follow up: I bought Mark's books V1 & V2. This is an expensive set of books, $120. I hesitated to buy them and would have liked more information before I took the plunge. I thought I would add my own review here. I rate myself an intermediate smith. I can turn out a decent pair of tongs. Vol 1 covers all the basic smithing operations, Drawing, Upsetting, Bending and Welding. Starting with drawing a taper the last few chapters are about making various kinds of tongs. Vol 2 is primarily about leaf work with emphasis on basic repousse. The books are written as a series of projects that build on each other, both in forging skills and tools. Probably more than half the work described in the book is about tool making. Each project is describe in much more detail than you would find in your typical smithing how to book and there are ample black and white photographs. This is much more than just a string of projects. It is clear that this has all been thought out very carefully to make it into an integrated, complete course. Mark's style is informal and self deprecating in a very British way. When talking about hammer technique he mentions that his friends used to call him "Lightning" (never hits the same spot twice). There is nothing pompous or pedantic about his writing. The books are hard cover with heavy paper and the pages are sewn in signatures - high quality binding. None of this is extraordinairy in itself. IMO two things make these books a standout. Content: Apart from the usual smithing projects the book contains an in depth section on hammers. He discusses hammer technique, the advantages of different hammer styles and how to dress a hammer face all in detail. I've not seen this in any other smithing book and I don't understand why. These are the basics and especially with technique it's possible to injure oneself if done poorly. Also he devotes quite a bit of space to cold work and cold chisels. IMO cold chisels are much neglected in modern smithing and none of my other books give much detail on how to use these tools. There is a project to forge a bending fork out of a single piece of stock which I have never seen before. The book also contains the best basic intro to metallurgy and heat treatment that I have ever seen. He covers the necessary phase transitions and crystal structure in some detail yet he manages to make terms like pearlite, martinsite comprehensible. Finaly, he lays out the calculations for stock measurements in detail - actualy a bit too much for my taste. Forging: The projects are not only detailed step by step, but unlike any other text I have seen, Mark talks in depth about how the iron is moves and why and how you prepare each step to give the right set up for drawing or bending in the next. Despite over 20 years of playing with hot iron, reading Mark's descriptions of how to move the material gave me a new undestanding of steel and how to forge it. Honestly, when I got the books and thumbed through them my heart sank. I realized I had just spent $120 on elementary texts. The first starts with tapering and works up to tong making. I KNOW how to make tongs. I certainly know how to draw a taper. The second deals with leaf work which I am not that interested in. But after reading his first forging chapter on drawing tapers, I realized that in fact I have somethings to learn about drawing a taper. It became obvious that if I worked through the whole course, yes starting with tapering, I would be a much better smith. I dont like forged wizard heads either. I think they are ugly. But I am going to do that project anyway for the same reasons. Criticisms: Mark's informal style tends to rambling sometimes. His prose is often not that clear and I have had to reread some paragraphs a couple three times. Also there are typos and grammar errors. These issues are worse in vol 2 than vol 1. While these don't detract from the usefulness of the book, it's a shame that the quality of the writing does not do justice to the content. After all the effort it must have taken to put this book together, it would make sense to run it by an editor. The photographs are very good but occaisionaly they are not up to snuff. I still cant make what kind of edge is shown on the finished cold chisel. He devotes a lot of space to simple math. What could have been done in one line can take half a page. If you need remedial math just to figure stock dimensions, I don't see that it's Mark's job to teach it to you. His exposition of the KE formula, 1/2MV^2 is very long winded and I found all this tedious. But then I have a lot of math in my background and others might appreciate his taking the time to lay it out. In sum, I agree with the reviews above. This book is head and shoulders above other introductory texts. If you are a beginner or intermediate smith these are simply a must have. No matter how proud you are of your skills as they are, you will get a lot of benefit from working through even the most elementary projects. The price is steep by comparison but it's a very profitable investment.

Great! My guess is that the plate wasnt separated in the first place and the weld is just an edge repair.

Definitely not original condition. Looks like MIG. As was said, its not enough to weld down the edges. But I notice the weld is not parallel to the plate. Is it possible it's a full penetration weld, or at least a very deep one? Rebound would tell.

I have a 5" HF vise that I bought years ago and has served me very well. It's not high quality but it is a decent tool and has given very good value for the money. Still I would like a Wilton. How do you weld onto those vises? They are CI.