fciron

Just back in town, haven't had a chance to catch up on all the new info. Thanks for the well-wishes on the finger; the hand surgeon used the phrase "not going to worry about the break" so the first two fingers of my left hand are velcroed together. I currently have about 70% range of movement (my estimate), so I expect a good report from the Doc tomorrow. I suspect that our usage of a definite article in front of "hospital" predates the NHS or the American medical insurance system. I put it down to uppity colonists. I did see Jake's lovely spoon and Beth's enthusiasm for copper. Copper can react badly with acidic foods and make them taste bad; that's why copper pots are tinned on the inside. I've seen some older utensils made with brass for the business ends of spatulas and spoons. Identifiable and trustworthy brass sheet can be harder to scrounge than copper for modern folks. It can also be less cooperative for forging. Forewarned is forearmed. (Hmmm, even three-armed could be really handy in the shop.) Lewis

Jake, I'm glad your moment of inattention only led to forging harder steel. I think drill presses are dangerous as a result of familiarity. Use it often, there's very little setup; You just slap the work on the table or put it in the vise and slide it into place. This was a small part so there was no question about it going in the vise. But the vise just sits on the table and this piece was thicker than the ones I had just finished. I did the same thing that I did 10 minutes before, but I wasn't doing the same job as 10 minutes before. I would have been safer in the 20" "camel-back" drill press, the vise on mine is bolted down. The round, rotating table allows any point on the table to be moved under the drill, but it only has one speed, which is quite slow. Ironic that the older, scarier tool would have prevented this accident. Perhaps I should mount my cross-slide table to the other one. I'm on my way out of town on family stuff, so that's almost the first week of recovery without lost shop time. I'll try and check in if I experience any philosophical enlightenment.

Actually, that hammered rope twist goes well with your faceted ball and the square shaft. They all share a similar geometry. Looks good by me. I've got no philosophical input at the moment, recent events have put me in a very practical state of mind. I got a drill hung up and spun the vise on the drill press. It came around at 600 rpm and broke my left index finger before shooting across the room. Going to the hand surgeon for a more complete diagnosis tomorrow. If the word "quick" is in your head you should probably take a deep breath and count to ten before using power tools. I've got some health insurance and the bills are covered, so it's not a life-altering injury, just gonna mess with my schedule a bit. Looking at my schedule for the next couple of months to see what's gonna get done and how. Help is readily available,but none of them have forging experience. Should be interesting.

MB, are you sure that little #2 morse taper is up to the task of pushing some big drills? Why are you slowing it down? That will have some bearing on the correct solution. lewis

I have a few like this, as well as forged ones. One of the things I like about the fabricated ones is that they have less of a tendency to put a twist in the bend because all of the working surfaces are parallel. I frequently use bending forks butted up against each other or overlapping and if the legs are tapered on backside it introduces even more twist than I do on my own. I think the tight fit absorbs a lot of the bending stresses rather than the weld. I sometimes do a fake post-heat on things like this by putting taking an extra welding pass on the mild steel side of the weld in the hopes that the extra heat will slow the cooling of the tool steel and prevent any hardening at the weld margin.

I haven't really looked at those tong hinges in a while. I just found them in the computer and posted. Looking at them now I can see that the upset square corners are the kind of thing that make forged work worthwhile. If they were simply bent to that shape then the effect produced by lining up the square corners would be lost. I think that is the type of work in which the client can see the difference produced by forging. It is not just about surface texture, there are forms that are not practical other ways. Those are bird feet! They're from my Baba Yaga line. I am flattered that my thought seem organized, I feel like I'm flailing around for a point. This is a stimulating and pleasant conversation. I don't know if it's the heat or what, but everywhere else on the internet has seemed to be irate and quick to make things personal lately. Another story pertaining to the main thread: I attended an "Iron Symposium" at Penland School of Crafts. Penland may have 'crafts' in it's name, but it and most of the people in attendance fall very clearly on the 'art' side of any discussion of art and craft. I have notes on it somewhere in the shop, but it was not the discussion about the future direction or the meaning of the craft that made an impression. The topic that produced the most excitement and the strongest opinions was in some ways similar to our quandry here: should a blacksmith do other work to pay the bills? There were two camps; those who felt that since they are in possession of a complete welding and fabrication shop it is only sensible to take welding work to pay the bills, and those who felt that you should not mix a 'day job' up with your art. At the time I was on the 'only sensible' side. My logic was that even if it wasn't art (or forging or blacksmithing or whatever you aspire to) it was still me, in my shop, playing with my toys, and getting paid for it. Now, with a decade or so more experience, I am shifting to the other side. Letting other work into the shop is a slippery slope. You weld up some window bars for a neighbor and they send over six more people that want window bars. It pays, it can even make shop rate, but it's not what you got into this for. I think I said earlier that I had let my business slide into all fabrication/repair type work and I was trying to figure my way back into what I want to do. So the ideas raised here are ones that have been on my mind a lot lately. I think there are two themes combined in Jake's original post: one concerns the value of forging and the other concerns what I'll call aspirational work: the kind of stuff we aspired to do when we took up the smith's hammer. In Jake's case they overlap completely, for me somewhat less so. It seems fairly clear that there are differences in each of our aspirations for our work that affect our views of the importance of forging. Enough for tonight. Lewis

Now you've doubled the price of the trammel. :-p Contemplative heats are for evenings and weekends, when I'm trying to pay the bills I gather all my thoughts before I light the forge. Interesting point from my business, the one job I do regularly which best fits your definition of forged are tongs for use in an industrial forging plant. There is no indication anywhere of the size of the starting stock but it is a purely functional product. In contrast, almost everything I make as 'wrought ironwork' contains a significant proportion of factory stock, but it is marketed for it's aesthetics. One of the designers I work with showed me a table, probably from Mexico, and asked if I could build one like it. She was getting them for about 1/4 the price that I could build them. Do we want to educate people about the possibilities of forging, and thus encourage the demand for cheaper foreign labor to do forged work, or do we want to encourage people to get locally produced, unique work, thus promoting our own business? Perhaps Jake wishes to be an evangelist for forging from all sources? (I actually think that encouraging higher quality work from out foreign competitors is a good thing because it decreases the price gap and raises standards. I do think that the importation of cheap ironwork has raised the demand, but it has kept a very low price point. The difference between locally made forged work and cheap imports is a factor of ten or more, so we are producing a very high end luxury product. It think there are a lot of people out there who would buy something locally produced if it were 4 or 5 times the price of an import, but don't buy our work now because it's 10-20 times the price. A rising tide lifts all boats.) I've attached a couple pictures of my box joint and a couple of production type items that always seem to cost just a little more than we can sell them for. The box of the box joint is dressed using a piece of flat bar as a drift and the tang is forged using a butcher to set the shoulder and a little file work at the shoulder as well.

Hey Jake, very nice candlestick. Nice work on the firetools too. I think I have some pics on the process for that box joint when I copied it out of Streeter's "Professional Smithing". I'll try to find and post them, the 'official' method comes out a bit tidier, but yours looks like for fun. ;-) Do you want to talk philosophy of work or philosophy of forging? I don't think that there is any real argument that forging is the plastic deformation of metal, the argument would be about how much deformation per piece is needed to qualify as blacksmith work. I readily admit that not all of the work I do is forged. At the moment I do not believe that even most of it is forged. I think one of the important points that you make is the need to make an extra effort to get/sell/promote forged work. I was really pushing the forged work in my business. When someone brought in a picture of something they liked or a drawing, I would respond with my own drawing using forged elements that I was interested in and an appropriate price. (Most of my work is with interior designers.) Things were going along pretty well and I was doing a reasonable amount of mostly forged work. Well I hit a rough patch in my personal life at about the same time as the economy hit a rough patch, so I wasn't promoting the expensive stuff (and forged work is more expensive) and no one was hunting down the expensive stuff. A couple of years later and I wake up one day and realize I haven't lit the forge in months and I'd better get on the ball. I am curious as to how you reconcile the desire to educate the populace about forging with the fact that forged work is a luxury item in this day and age. How is Pottery barn 'wrought iron' with a forged ornament on the end any worse than the same thing made strictly out of unforged bar stock? One could argue that by hammering a lumpy point on the end of the bar and adding value, that Pottery Barn (or Pier One or whoever) is helping to make forging a mark of prestige and desirability. (I think you said something pretty close to that.) Even so, how many people can afford to buy a 20 hour candlestick? It seems unnecessary and possibly unwise to look to the past for clarification of the modern smith's role. (I share Jake's and Tim's interpretations of the past, but that's not the point.) Very little of what we make has to come from a smith (with the possible exception of industrial forging). I think that the movement from practicality into art frees the metalworker in several ways; first, it allows us to do and promote things simply because we like them. Punched holes and tenoned connections are not just a joint, they're a decorative element. If my work is judged as art then I do not have to say that joint is stronger or faster or cheaper, I can say it's cooler, or sexier, or that is speaks to the function of the piece, visually punctuating each connection and illustrating the forces between each of the steel members holding up the table. Second, it frees us from the confines of technique, (Jake, you've addressed this too.) we can use whatever technique we deem appropriate, arc welding, flame cutting, grinding, and more become available when we are freed from working strictly with hammer and anvil. Many shapes and structures that are otherwise impractical can be made by combining techniques. Jake allowed for the use of other materials and techniques in his original post, but required that it looked forged. I don't see that necessity, I think there is room for some continuity in the scale of metalwork. Ok, it's past my limit for arguing on the internet and I'm still not sure I've defined for myself (let alone anyone else) the question I'm trying to answer. Later, Lewis

Clinton, he's not really looking for variable speed, just two different speeds. That actually does make sense whereas continuously variable speed seems like overkill and trying to feather the clutch while sanding could be a disaster waiting to happen. I like the two motor solution. Your router controller states in the description I don't think that 220 volt 2HP motor Matt is planning on using qualifies on either count. As Matt pointed out earlier, unless it says 'universal' or 'ac/dc' somewhere on the nameplate, hooking a motor up to a dimmer will let the smoke out somewhere. This is a safety issue! With an AC motor speed is a function of frequency, not voltage, that's what Variable Frequency Drives do. Lewis

I'm lucky enough to be right down the street from Cumberland Elkhorn Coal in Louisville, KY. They have Blacksmithing coal in their yard and we used to get them to ship truckloads of bagged coal when I was at the Metal Museum in Memphis. If you call the Louisville office, Rick is the guy that handled the smithing coal. http://www.ce-coal.com/ Lewis

I've never understood the obsession with competition. I've rarely been anywhere that there's been enough smiths for competition to be a serious issue. The only two guys I know who regularly found themselves competing for work were also regular collaborators. (Often on the same jobs.) The other funny thing about keeping secrets (as arftist aptly demonstrated) is that anyone ambitious and motivated enough to be competition will compete whether you share with them or not. A lot of other folks interested in smithing will never compete no matter how much you show them. So you might as well talk it up. You'll get a much better feeling teaching someone something than keeping a secret.

I make some tongs for a large drop-forging operation. One of the first guys to contact me made the comment "We do the same thing, we just have bigger hammers." Well, it turns out they don't have any hammers. They have some crank-presses that are about the size of my house, but they're not hammers. I had a smaller eccentric type punch press at my old shop. It was an interesting machine and I did a few jobs with it. Never even got around to exploiting it's deep throat. I wish I had moved it to the new shop, but space didn't allow at the time. Larry, don't wrestle with a pig. you'll just get muddy and the pig enjoys it. BigGun, be careful, you harass him too much and he'll turn up on this forum and tell us how ignorant we are. (Especially if you give him a link! )

ID: leg vise Age: 20th century based on the parting line on the ball-end of the screw and square ends on the handle. Weld a leg on there and get to work. If you're gonna be hammering on it (or using an angle grinder) you might consider making it a little lower, I find most leg vises too tall to work comfortably for anything but filing, and I prefer a bench vise for filing. If it's your only vise then the 38-39 inches suggested is correct. Traditional wisdom on filing is that the work be held at about the height of your elbow. (So that you're forearm and the file are horizontal.)

I would look at Dad's current set up to see how his equipment is placed. That will give you a starting point, since you can see from here that there is already disagreement on proper anvil placement. I would include a back door, a double door if possible, so that the whole shop can be opened up for cross ventilation. A couple of smaller windows that can be opened for ventilation in colder weather would be good too. (A back door also gives you a direction to expand the shop later ;-) ) Standard hot rolled steel comes in 20 foot lengths, pipe in 21 foot, and tubing in 24 footers. A lot of folks working out of smaller spaces store their stuff in 1/2 lengths, so leave room for a good sized stock rack. For the last couple of summers I have wound up putting my EZup tent and a leg vise outside the door so I can do most of the heavier and dirtier grinding outside. These two points suggest that some sheltered outdoor space would be good for cutting stock to fit in the shop or doing dirty work. (Sounds like you're out in the country, I wouldn't suggest it if the neighbors are only 30 feet away. Ha. )

Those carpenter's marking knives/scribes are very nearly the same thing I made in shop class at age 16. My introduction to blacksmithing and probably what corrupted the rest of my life. B)

I don't think Tubbe is doing a multiple temper process. I believe he intends to take the piece out and test it every couple hundred degrees and then stop when it is as soft as he wants it. So it's really only a single temper.

Sounds to me like you should be giving advice rather than asking for it. Your procedure has both a high chance of success and a proper amount of caution.

Those floating mines are several feet across not inches, and they don't have protective layers of corrugated stuff. They're meant to bump into things. So, no, no boom. :rolleyes:

Grant, you're the one who suggested forging the two-piece nut onto the screw. You even told him to make a second, oversized male part ( ) as a mandrel. You're losing it, man. That was only four months ago. :P

Dang, I think Larry covered it all in the first post. There were a few extra details, but that's pretty much what's up with old self-contained and utility hammers. The utility hammers (not self contained) are less popular because most of us don't have the compressors or boilers needed to run them. In terms of why old hammers need work, I just found out that the 50lb little Giant that came with my shop has been set up for 440v current for the last forty years and the shop has 220. This explains why it would only do half the work of my 25. In addition it has had a strange maintenance history; the babbit bearings have been repoured several times, but none of the pins or the oval shaped holes in the dupont linkage have ever been repaired and the previous owner was amazed at the improvement in the hammer after I spent 1/2 and hour adjusting the ram guides.. I am also not sure that the alignment of the shaft was maintained when the new bearings were poured. A lot of this equipment has been maintained by untrained people in somewhat arbitrary ways. I am pretty sure my guys re-did the babbit because it was a process they knew, not necessarily because it was the source of the problem, but they didn't mess with the milling, reaming and recentering of holes because it wasn't their job. I'm sure he knew about and adjusted the ram guides when the machine was new, but as the machinery got older and was only used occasionally a lot of the maintenance issues accelerated without anyone noticing because no one remembered what it was supposed to work like. (I know when I replaced all the pins and bushings in the 25, ten years after the first rebuild, I was quite surprised at the improvement and my failure to notice the deterioration over time.) Lewis

Larry, I seem to remember that part of the reason for taking on the sharpening was to be able to pay your son a living wage. It looks to me like that goal is very possible. Could you have him work on the points Mondays and Tuesdays and then be ready to take care of the leftovers yourself later in the week? This would give him some big chunks of time to get the hang of it and still make sure the work doesn't fall behind. I'd make some kind of schedule and stick to it. You don't want to be jumping in snatching the work away from him because you think he's too slow. (Even if that's not what you're doing it could feel that way to him. Blacksmiths are often bad communicators, especially in the shop.) It takes years of practice to be able to forge efficiently, so you need to find a way to let him get some practice in while still getting all the work done. It's also important that any employee (especially your son) feel like you trust him with the work. That can't happen if you keep pulling him off of it. Give him a preset chunk of time, if there's leftovers, you do them and when there's finally no leftovers then give him a raise. I understand your concern about wear and tear on the equipment (and possibly on your son). Not really sure what to suggest there. No point ditching all the other equipment and moving the pointing operation into a shed, the whole purpose is to be able to play with all the toys. Sounds like the process is moving in the right direction, good luck getting the details worked out. Lewis

Curly has a point. A collar would be the traditional way to join scrolls.

Umm, I'm not sure what the cast/wrought discussion has to do with mining your own ore. If you want to make your own steel from your own ore, why not refine it directly into steel or iron rather than into cast iron? I believe you'd be interested in the bloomery process or the traditional Japanese method of making steel, both of which produce forgeable metal. Refining ore into cast iron before making it into steel is a very recent development in the history of metalwork. If you have forged material that you thought was cast iron in the past then I think you're mistaken about the metal. It could have been cast steel, malleable iron or even drop-forged steel. Since you have mentioned katanas several times as the sole example of 'damascus' type steel I'm going to suggest that you look up a few knife forums and do a lot more research on damascus and pattern-welded steel. (I don't do that work, but I believe D Fogg knives has a very popular forum where people discuss stuff like bloomery steel-making and pattern-welding.) There are a lot of people out there doing very innovative work and katanas are just the razor-sharp tip of the iceberg. Last but not least, if you've got a crazy idea that you think might work and no one believes in it then the best thing you can do is try it and take pictures. Trying to convince online skeptics is a pointless activity, and I've noticed that trying to dissuade online idealists is just as unrewarding. Perhaps that's why so few people have posted.

Don't clean it too much, it's got some lovely pitting. I've got an old shop and there are some tools in it that were clearly worn into bizarre shapes by years of use, not modification or abuse. These things happen gradually, that hammer face starts spreading, maybe the curve means it leaves fewer marks on the plow points. "Oh, I should grind those off, well they're not cracking yet and I've got something to finish." "Oh I should grind that down, but I only need it for a few licks." Repeat a couple hundred times :-)

It's certainly shaped like a cross-pein hammer. Amazing what can happen to things over the years.