I pumped Frosty for information and made THIS!

[pkrankow]

Here's where I started: I did get some stuff wrong and as I worked came to solutions.
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/122271-post20.html

http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/122282-post21.html

http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/122309-post22.html

While I agree with Frosty on giving too much fine detail as your parts will be different and you will need to make adjustments, I am going to tell what I did. Remember that your BRAIN is your most powerful tool, use it and make adjustments accordingly.

Parts list per burner:
0.035 inch contact tips. These have 1/4-28 threads on them.
1/8 MPT to 1/4 compression fitting (all stores in my area sell the same brand)
1 x 1 x 3/4 black iron T. The 3/4 comes off the side.
3/4 x 6 inch pipe nipple

Tool list:
#3 drill bit, HSS, dulled slightly.
#P drill bit
3/4 to 1/2 inch reducing bushing
1/2 inch MPT to 1/2 inch hose fitting
drill bit that fits inside above hose barb smoothly.(I used 25/64, you may need a different size)
Drill press (hand drill will work well here as we build a jig)
1/8 inch tapered pipe tap
1/4-28 tap
wrenches, file etc.
vice

process:
Pic 1 shows the first burner I made with the parts to make the next before I started.

Pic 2 & 3 I build up a jig out of the reducing bushing and the hose barb to fit a drill bit. This bit is much LARGER than the finished hole. so we are just making a spot to center the correct drill bit.

Pic 4 & 5 I complete the hole with the correct size bit. I went undersized to #P (from #R)as my first try did not thread completely. Using the jig with some tape on the drill would likely help keep things more true, especially if using a hand drill.

Pic 6 I dulled the #3 drill bit by filing the back side of the cutting surface. This is to prevent the drill from sucking into the brass and going crooked or causing personal injury.

Pic 7 My cheap drill press vice needed a spacer to close tightly. I used another fitting to space my jaws out on the opposite side. I am very careful to restrain my vice so it will not be picked up by the drill. check alignment several times then go for it. I do not know how to do this with a hand drill other than being very careful in a bench vice.

Pic 8 tap all the way through. Yes you don't need to go that far, but I lack bottom taps and wanted to be sure.

Pic 9 I tapped my T, but did NOT go all the way in. I only want the male pipe thread on the compression fitting to go in as far as the pipe is thick. This is because Frosty says tuning for lean involves shortening the length of the contact tip from about 3/4 inch to 5/8 inch. I will do that after my forge is built so I can tune into the proper space.

Pic 10 I have all my completed parts and am ready for assembly. I will be using muffler assembly putty (Muffler Mender) on the threads as they will get hot, and pipe dope is for lower temperatures. This is recommended on the antique lanterns I use (my current fire fix, search for Petromax). Be careful to not get any INSIDE the contact tip. If you ever need to take this apart, the muffler putty will crumble with a few light taps of a wrench or pliers.

Pic 11 Here are my complete burners, they are practically identical, but will require individual tuning when I put them in service.

pic 12 & 13 This is one of my burners lit. I am trying to show heat on an old fireplace rack, but in the 5 minutes I let it run, it did not start to glow. My flame is rich, which according to Frosty means that my contact tips need to be shortened. He recommends locking them in a drill chuck and using an abrasive tool like a dremmel to cut them nicely. I think I need to remove about 1/8 inch. I will do so when I get my forge built and can test it in the cavity.

Pic 14 is taken from Ron Reil's website and shows flame color for rich neutral and lean nicely.

I need to build the rest of my system and tune it properly. I am going to use copper tubing from the compression fittings to my valved manifold. I am unsure if the use of an idle circuit is worth the complexity, but plan to put one in anyways. I do not have a pressure gauge yet as I am using a "Mr. Heater" 30-60 psi regulator, it says it can regulate down to 0 psi (it can), but is intended for the upper range. I will put a gauge onto the manifold when it is built. I intend to use a 16 gallon drum which has an outside diameter of 14 inches as my shell. I am going to line with 3 inches of ceramic wool insulation and a coating of heat reflecting refractory (itc100 or similar) with fire brick as the forge floor. I am thinking about "squishing" my drum by 2 inches to make it 12 x 15 3/4 to reduce cavity volume and increase floor space. It will be 18 inches long with doors to reduce the openings to 4x6 or so.
I hope to post a finished forge in a month or two, as I blew all my hobby money on tools and parts to make these burners.

Hope you like it
Phil

Edited August 6, 2009 by mod07
removed copyrighted photo

[charadeur]

Thanks so much. I ended up buying a couple of burners because I could not find a detailed instructions like yours. I will file this away as I have enough refractory left over for a smaller forge which is probably what I should have built in the first place.

[pkrankow]

some info on tuning this burner:

http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f86/trying-build-first-gas-forge-13680/

Phil

[David Einhorn]

Very interesting, thank you for sharing.

Do you plan on installing valving so that you can choose how many of the three burners are in operation?

[Frosty]

Finally!

I tried to reply when you PM'd me the post but for some reason couldn't. Then I couldn't find the thread when I searched. . . USING THE TITLE! Then my connectin speed tanked and I couldn't do much of anything.

Anyway, I can finally reply.

The only criticism I have is don't, do NOT use sealants in the burners:

First of all teflon is very TOXIC when heated. Silicon isn't going to last much past the first time you shut it down and chimney effect cooks it.

Second, it isn't necessary, the burner jet is an open orifice so pressure behind it has a free path to escape. If something is leaking it's a BIG leak and should be repaired. It isn't an explosion hazard at all seeing as the only time there's gas is when the forge is burning.

Now, I do use teflon tape from the manifold back to the regulator but it isn't going to ever get hotter than I can touch with my bare hand.

Using the compression to MPT fitting, there are only one place it can possibly leak anyway, where the mig tip threads into the fitting. Where the fitting threads into the "T" isn't under gas pressure at all, ever. The flare fitting isn't going to leak if it's snug.

Nice job Phil and posting your directions deserves an attaboy.

ATTABOY!!

Frosty

[pkrankow]

I need to post more pics, the forge shrank to a 2 burner, 11 inches long. The ribs of the drum made squishing...difficult. Shorter the ribs made squishing easy as the edge could be rolled over more to hold everything in place. Estimated final internal volume is 370 cu in. I used pop-rivets to make a shelf support and brace it into shape with the extra metal from being shorter. I mounted it to its cart a few days ago. I ran some carriage bolts through the shell and into a metal shelf, leaving an airspace between the shell and shelf. Seems to work quite nicely.

Yes, valving is going to be installed, but I am unsure if an idle circuit is needed, I have read mixed reviews. The complexity and cost is not very high, so I may put it in. I can choose to not use it if don't like it.

Would there be any reason to run the back burner with the front burner off? Cost would be 1 valve if I kept the main shutoff.

Would using larger T's, say 3/8 or even 1/2 inch, to manifold the burners and act as a small receiver tank ensure even gas pressure to multiple burners? Or is using 1/4 inch fittings to the 1/8 inch ID tubing already doing enough of that? I have read several complaints of having to fiddle with the pressure after changing the number of burners in service. Is fiddling with the pressure more a function of the change in back pressure to the burner from extra mass injected into the forge?

The muffler sealant I used in the burner will turn to a ceramic material at temperature. It is non-toxic after it is brought to temperature once, but does have some funky solvents in it. I figured it wouldn't hurt, and it is recommended on mantle lanterns to ensure that the fuel/air mix goes where it needs to. In retrospect, since this is where the fuel mixes with the air, I understand why it is not necessary.

Still need to order insulation, but I am rebuilding the front end of my mother-in-laws cavalier: hood, head lights, radiator, condenser. It's funny how high the bumper is on SUV's:(, how easily a small car can miss the bumper:o, and how quickly hobby money gets reassigned:confused:. Happily no injuries.

Phil

[Frosty]

There shouldn't be any problem with a ceramic sealant after it's dried, the worst I can think of is it might jam the mig tip if you want to change it.

When I run a single burner in a double burner forge it's usually the front one so the highest heat is closer to the opening. The rear of the forge will get hot and stay hot provided it isn't open to the rear. It won't get as hot but will heat up.

I don't know how it'll work running the rear burner instead, I never thought to try. It might work better, I can think of a couple reasonably logical reasons it should but won't go into them so my thoughts won't effect what you observe it in action.

Frankly, for the cost of another 1/4 turn ball valve and a few more fittings I put valves on both or all as the case may be.

The 1/4" pipe I use for the manifold provides more than enough reservoir (plenum) to run four 3/4" burners on my forge so you'll be fine. Think about it, the jet orifice is 0.035" x 2, the 1/4" pipe is 0.250" AND the difference in cross section and delivery volume grows exponentially. Without punching it in on my calculator (guesstimate) there should be enough volume to run maybe 20, 3/4" burners though I think you'd need at least a 100gl propane tank to prevent freeze up in really short order.

Frosty

Edited August 6, 2009 by Frosty

[pkrankow]

started a new thread:
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f86/my-gasses-its-way-13876/#post128124
Phil

[pkrankow]

The muffler mender is not a good idea as it sets up too well to allow for tuning. I'm glad I only used it on one burner.

Phil

[pkrankow]

blast, I can't edit anymore.
fixing the above link

Phil

[Radical Eggnog]

First off, great guide. It helped a lot. I'm in the process of building my first forge (build the burner today, the actual forge next weekend.) I was wondering how you connected the propane to the burner. Just trying to ensure I do everything properly (and safely!)

[pkrankow]

You see in the pictures that I used 1/4 inch copper tubing with compression fittings? They are quite reliable and easy to set up, and not very expensive. Just use a tubing to NPT connection to take it to the regulator hose. I have a gage and ball valve in there on a Tee so I can set my pressure (yes it is relative unless your gage is calibrated, etc. mine isn't)

Use a gas ball valve, and a propane gage.

This is from the above linked thread and has pictures of the first forge I built. I retired it because of being too hungry.
http://www.iforgeiro...post__p__135737


My current gas forge is much smaller



and only uses one burner from the first forge. This is made from stove pipe fastened with self drilling screws. I made a handle to fasten the valve and gage to so they were not directly against the forge body. Having the two handles makes it easy to move hot (but never running)

Phil

[Dodge]

For the gas tube, I bought 5/16" OD brass (not copper) tubing. This is basically the same diameter of a MIG tip. drilled and tapped the tubing to accept the tip and used a compression fitting to connect it my ball shut-off valve. Instead of just drilling and tapping Tee for fitting I drilled and welded a slug of 9/16" OD X 5/16 ID X 1" heavy wall pipe so my gas tube can be slid in and out and I can also use the same tube in my forced air forge. I have a HF mini lathe which made the proccess easier but the same could be done with care in a drill press. The Tee in the picture is 1.25" reduced to 1" pipe as I thought I wasn't getting enough air when I bench tested, but I changed to a 1" Tee and and it seems to work fine.

[pkrankow]

I love the shell!

Your burner idea is pretty good too. There are also several quick release options suitable for propane.

Phil

[teenylittlemetalguy]

Ahh, you beat me to it. I was planning to write up a similar thread.
I have made about a dozen of these for myself and others and would like to point out that the tip flare can be made in the insulation if you want/need to skip that part.
I recommend not tapping to the bottom for the mig tip as you want it to tighten up, seems easy in the brass to get too sloppy of a fit otherwise(at least for me).
Be sure the face of the tip is cleaned up and square after cutting it down, and use a tip cleaner before you install it to be sure no little microscopic swarf is in the way.
I love these burners, I have one that is scaled down to 1/2" pipe and a .025 tip for my small forge and it gets fantastically hot and barely sips the fuel.

[Dodge]

Yeah, I molded the flare into the lining. One less thing to burn up :)

[teenylittlemetalguy]

"Yeah, I molded the flare into the lining. One less thing to burn up "


Dodge,I agree, and faster to build. I liked your idea of making the tip adjustable. Cutting down the tip to tune it is my least favorite part in building these. and it would be nice to have the quicker atmosphere adjustment when needed.

[Dodge]

Thanks Teeny. I have to give credit for the gas tube to Jack Davis of Oregon (?) It originally was used in a modified RonRiel type burner that used that tube mounted in line with the burner tube.



I like experimenting with different type burners, and I try to incorporate this tube as the brass tubing was hard to find locally and it works so well for me. I just use a different MIG tip for my forced air burner, but otherwise its just a "quick change" unit :)

[teenylittlemetalguy]

Dodge, I have 4 very similar burners that came with my first forge. they came with massive jets that ran way too rich. Instead of working them over i just switched to Frosty's style, but maybe I should think about re-jetting them someday.
What style burner is your daily use model?
How do you like your forced air one? I was always concerned that it would be hard to get a reducing atmosphere with them, but not sure if that is a real problem or not.

[pkrankow]

Dodge, I have 4 very similar burners that came with my first forge. they came with massive jets that ran way too rich. Instead of working them over i just switched to Frosty's style, but maybe I should think about re-jetting them someday.
What style burner is your daily use model?
How do you like your forced air one? I was always concerned that it would be hard to get a reducing atmosphere with them, but not sure if that is a real problem or not.

By backing the injector out you should induce more air into the burner, making it run more lean. That is one nice thing about an adjustable injector on more complex burners, you can tune the burner easily. I do agree that having to cut back the contact tip to adjust the burner is a pain.

Phil

[teenylittlemetalguy]

By backing the injector out you should induce more air into the burner, making it run more lean. That is one nice thing about an adjustable injector on more complex burners, you can tune the burner easily. I do agree that having to cut back the contact tip to adjust the burner is a pain.

Phil

Sorry Phil, I wasn't clear. I am using frosty's burners for daily use. I have the old adjustable burners, but they are not hooked up right now. I didn't bother adjusting them because the size of the jets were ridiculously large, I could have put them 6" down the tube and it still would have been rich. And burning that much propane was making me poor :lol:

[Dodge]

Those "injected" burners (2) were in my first gasser. Currently I'm using Frosty 's design. You can't beat its simplicity. Even though I tried to improve by using a larger Tee, I found that a Tee of the same size as the burner pipe was plenty large and though I haven't tried it yet, a 1" seems to be enough to weld in freon tank shell.

[teenylittlemetalguy]

Phil, yeah I , mixed up the direction to move the jet for rich/lean as i am on drugs recuperating from surgery.
Sounds like you have a nice little set up for your forge now. I just can't say enough about those little burners. never thought 10 mins start to finish for a naturally aspirated burner that could liquify steel was possible. Not much else could be done to improve them is my guess.
Dodge, I also tried larger tees and found out all it did for me was increase the cost of the parts. On Frosty's personal forge he uses1x1x3/4 tee's but I have been happy using straight 3/4" if there is a difference it is slight.

Frosty, if you have a chance you should tell about the big 1-1/4" version you made once :ph34r:

[Frosty]

The 1 1/4" burner was made by a friend and used in an iron melter down south somewhere.

I use the 1x1x3/4 because they're a little quieter though not much and they're a little less effected by breezes or restricted forge door openings. A little more robust as I call it.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Radical Eggnog]

Hey all. I got everything assembled, kicked it on, and for some reason the burner is sputtering. It is very odd, and I can link to a video if need be. It seems like some gas is escaping from where the mig tip connects to the compression fitting. The tip is screwed in there tight, but it is still happening. I'm not sure what could be causing it, so thought that I would toss is to you folks and see what you could make of it.