Need alternative, skipping ceramic wool lining on new devil forge DFPROF5

[Danrich]

Hi I'm new here and have looked at some articles on this subject here, been involved more in welding and metal work than forging over the last 4 decades but new to forging

I need a alternative, skipping the ceramic wool lining on a new devil forge DFPROF5 with it being 48" long to get to the middle of the forge with a brush seems like a mess to do

I was thinking maybe to line it with fire bricks only? or use a mix and pore type insulator, bricks seem to be the cleanest but been told to not use high temp adhesive to keep them in place, is this true?

Thanks for the help

 

[Latticino]

First question really is why do you need a 4' long forge chamber?  Are you doing large scale architectural forgings?  Do you have a massive power hammer, hydraulic press or twisting machine?  If I recall correctly, even Albert Paley's large forge was only around 24" long.  A 4' long forge with what appears to be only 1" of insulation is going to be an awful gas pig. 

While the ads indicate that the forge is suitable for sword forging, it isn't really optimal in my estimation.  The only time you need to heat a long section of steel during forging, in my experience, is when you are drawing out a forge welded billet of pattern welded steel (and even then the 4' is too long).  If you are planning on using the forge for heat treatment, the small crossection and spot heating burners won't allow you to easily heat the billet to an even temperature.  A high temperature salt bath, muffle furnace or Don Fogg style drum heat treat forge are a much better choice.

If I had to have a 4' long forge, I would likely keep the ceramic fiber, rigidize it lightly, then cast an inner liner into it using either Kastolite 30 or Mizzou depending on the planned use.  If I was on a serious budget, I would put on a glove, disposable tyvek lab coat ,and just paint it with the presumed satinite coating supplied by the manufacturer in multiple layers.

Note:  I have used forges with cast, 2" thick monolithic insulation (Kastolite 30 or equal) that acts as an inner liner as well as insulation layer.  They work and are durable, but the cast insulation thermal mass does take a long time and a lot of energy to heat up.  I believe that the excellent Chili forges use this method of construction.

[Danrich]

I'm an embarrassed newbie that should have taken more time in my research, maybe best to pack it back up and sell it off

Your comments and recommendations are greatly appreciated

[Latticino]

Well, you don't necessarily need to throw away the baby with the bathwater, as they say.  A 4' forge is a specialty item, and I don't expect that you will easily be able to sell it on (even if unused) without losing significantly.  If you can, great, and I would look for one with a chamber that isn't more than 8-12" long for a first forge.  If you can't, there are options for blocking off a section of the 4' monster and just using one or two burners.  Note that even with 2 burners you still may have difficulty supplying enough propane with a typical 20# propane bottle without it freezing.

What kind of stuff are you planning on forging?  If the "sword forge" label is what attracted you to this, I strongly recommend you start with making smaller blades to start with.  Even with experience doing other metal working, making a good safe-to-use sword is a daunting task.  The filing and hand sanding is a major effort, and heat treatment is as much an art as a science.  Actually what I really recommend is that you take an in person bladesmithing class (plenty around these days) and get your instructor to give you direct guidance on setting up your own shop if you still want to.  There are a lot of good resources in books, and online these days, but nothing beats in person mentoring.

Good luck.

[JHCC]

Danrich, please let us know where you are! We might be able to recommend local resources for your area, or even invite you to join one of us in our home forge, if you're close enough.

 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of meeting up with folk living within visiting distance for all kinds of good reasons. Think Bob shoots you a PM about Doug selling a thing you've been looking for, is holding a class focused on casting bronze hilts, selling some expensive blade steel for cheap, tools, equipment, etc.

Don't be embarrassed, it's a common mistake beginners in a trade make wanting the biggest and best tools and equipment without knowing the job or requirements.  Most all of us have done exactly that and I've learned several craft in my life. 

The salient points have been covered already though I would like to add my serious warning about carbon monoxide. Any propane forge WILL produce CO One with 5 burners is a CO machine and unless you wish to spend a few grand in an adequate ventilation system or work outdoors that forge will be a significant danger to you and anyone in an attached building. Lots of guys smith in attached garages and I don't "think" an open garage door would be sufficient to prevent CO from infiltrating the whole house.

One last significant problem using a forge that long is how much steel it heats. You can only realistically forge maybe 6", unless you have a forge roll or are really good with a power hammer. Bringing steel to forging temperatures without refining the grain causes grain growth AND decarburization of the surface. Grain growth is the common term for enlarged crystals. Crystal boundaries are failure initiation points. Hammering or forge rolling the stock crushes the crystals and distributes the faces so fractures have no easy path. The steel gets to be hard without being brittle. Make sense? What exactly goes on is a crazy involved subject my memory isn't good enough to go into but it exists.

Our club has a few pro bladesmiths who use small as in 4.5" x 4.5" x 9", 185+/- cubic inch forges heated with 1/2" T burners and they forge most everything from Puuko, carving, to 2 handed swords in the small forges. Two of them have ramping electric ovens to heat treat their blades and send swords out. 

We aren't trying to discourage you from the craft, but we really would like to prevent you from making the really expensive, common beginner mistakes.

Stick around, we'll help all we can.

Frosty The Lucky.