emmafvsmith Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 I recently out together a forge from burncraft, who make nice quality burners but the insulation was a bit lacking inside the forge. I added satanite on top of the ceramic wool lining, but am concerned that the top of the forge seems to be getting very hot, especially where the burner meets the forge body. As you can see in one of the pictures, it's even begun glowing red. Inside the burner is flush with the ceramic wool. Do I need to add another layer of insulation to the top of the forge? I've read that the burner should perhaps be set back a bit into the insulation to help prevent this exact problem, but wanted to ask advice first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 I think you answered your own question, when you stated "...but the insulation was a bit lacking inside the forge." I noticed that it is the top of the forge, rather than the burner that is turning red. Therefore, it is unlikely that heat is backing up much between the burner and the opening. So, you will need to add another layer of insulation on the ceiling, with another flame coating over that. You might consider using ceramic board, rather than ceramic wool, for the purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 That's my call too. Mike, do you think a small air gap between a ceramic board and the existing roof would be worth the trouble? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Yup! And since getting the two surfaces to mate perfectly would probably be a pain, ain't that nice? So, if he chooses ceramic board, or Morgan K 26 bricks, he could just drill small holes in the top plate of his forge shell, and drop screws through them, and screw them into a suspended ceiling, to hold it in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Yeah, anything is possible but it reminds me of building a recuperative wall forge. A slight gap between the inner forge liner and outer liner for an "air(?) gap". The inner shell has to be very high temp, kiln shelf to start maybe better. Then came the recuperative part. The burner penetration through the inner liner has a gap the burner fires through. The burner doesn't protrude into the annulus between inner and outer liners. The flame jet passes through the annulus and the inner flame port inducing a low pressure zone in the liner annulus. Now comes the trick part, while a low pressure space will be better insulation I was after more. I put "make up" ports at the forge doorways to suck in the dragon's breath and circulate it in the annulus between inner and outer liners. Heating the inner liner from both sides and if I were lucky it would induce just enough air in the make up ports to finish consuming the fuel. That was my take on a recuperative forge, adapted from industrial furnaces. Other than a couple minor experiments it never really got off the drawing board. There were just too many construction details to work through for a hobby forge, it so violated the KISS principle I dropped it as impractical. Just the opposite of the T burner in fact. The T is the embodiment of KISS made effective. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 No dispute here, but I am merely agreeing that a small air gap (less than 1" thick) will have some insulation value. And since it would also help to reduce the internal volume on what I consider to be a an overly tall internal volume, it would probably serve a double benefit. On the other hand, I like that recuperative forge scheme, being an impractical total over-doer at heart, my own self Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmafvsmith Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 This is so helpful, thank you a bunch everyone!! On 2/29/2024 at 6:19 PM, Mikey98118 said: I think you answered your own question, when you stated "...but the insulation was a bit lacking inside the forge." I noticed that it is the top of the forge, rather than the burner that is turning red. Therefore, it is unlikely that heat is backing up much between the burner and the opening. So, you will need to add another layer of insulation on the ceiling, with another flame coating over that. You might consider using ceramic board, rather than ceramic wool, for the purpose. Brill, I'll start this tomorrow. Found some 1" ceramic board that I can use, with another layer of ceramic fibre over the top. That'll increase the thickness of the insulation on the roof of the forge to 2", whereas it's only 1" now. Thanks for the suggest to use ceramic board! On 2/29/2024 at 6:19 PM, Mikey98118 said: I think you answered your own question, when you stated "...but the insulation was a bit lacking inside the forge." I noticed that it is the top of the forge, rather than the burner that is turning red. Therefore, it is unlikely that heat is backing up much between the burner and the opening. So, you will need to add another layer of insulation on the ceiling, with another flame coating over that. You might consider using ceramic board, rather than ceramic wool, for the purpose. Brill, I'll start this tomorrow. Found some 1" ceramic board that I can use, with another layer of ceramic fibre over the top. That'll increase the thickness of the insulation on the roof of the forge to 2", whereas it's only 1" now. Thanks for the suggest to use ceramic board! The only thing I'll say is that it is deffo the burner that's getting the hottest—I mean the roof is way too hot too but it's worst on the lower burner flare that meets the forge roof (that's the part that's glowing red). I messaged the company too to ask what to do and they tried to act like it was completely fine...not sure I trust them if it's literally glowing red, my last forge never did that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 6 hours ago, emmafvsmith said: I'll say is that it is deffo the burner So far we're figuring out what you're saying but I strongly suggest you not use text-lish on the forum and use spell check. Lots of members live in one of around 160 countries around the world and are using translation programs that tend to get known and established words wrong. Your questions, burner and forge issues, etc. are valuable to everybody on Earth, even if they're burning gas from (don't laugh) buried manure. The problems and solutions help everybody. The more clear we can be about what we say the better chance others will benefit which is the main reason Iforgeiron exists. I'm not chewing you out, not at all. It's just sort of a dream of mine that everybody on Earth uses the same technical jargon and understands each other. Make sense? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Getting back to his point; it is a very good point. This little mess has been bugging me for a couple of years. And my answer to his problem was sloppy, because I only have a hazy idea of a workable exact solution. The best I can say is what will lesson it. Not precisely why some burners in some forges experience it. What I can say precisely is unhelpful, but here it is. "Your burner is a little weak." It's not a lot weak, or your forge would not be getting to yellow incandescence with it. How's that for cold comfort? Unhelpful all over the place, right? So, we muddle along, with advice that can at least help; here is more. The mixing tube on your burner is too long, which weakens its flame somewhat. So shorten it down to nine times its diameter. And now you are being asked to modify your forge's burner by someone you never met; what's the chance that such advice is inviting? And furthermore, you will still need to increase the insulation in your forge's ceiling, so my advice is still less welcome; in your place, I would feel quite reluctant to take it. Finally, I cannot guaranty you that my advice will work out perfectly for you. I can only state that "in my vast experience..." blah, blah, blah. What a pickle! What to do? Well, you could just act on the first advice, and see how it works out... And finally, I could point out that your burner is top pointed and pointing straight down, which invites this problem. Manufacturers should mount their burners up high on a side wall of box forges, in order to avoid it. How's that for adding insult to injury? Now, aren't you sorry you brought up that objection? But, I'm not. It is long past time this mess got addressed. Anyone else want to "step up to bat, and take a swing"? 3 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: top pointed and pointing straight down Ugh! how about "...top mounted, and pointing down"; that should make better since Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 You're on a roll with this one Mike. It does one thing beautifully though it points out our different approaches to making burners. You keep using words like, exact, precise and <GASP> perfectly! I agree with all your points, length, position and orientation for the burner, Oh yeah. Pretty much the same for the forge, I think we're on the same page regarding it. I don't know what the inside of the burner nozzle and flange look like but one solution to a number of issues would be as simple as leaning the burner over so it impinges the floor at an angle not far but not directly into the junction between floor and wall. It would increase the distance between nozzle and a surface plus being at an angle the two would decrease back pressure. That and shortening the mixing tube will up it's performance appreciably. Moving the burner rather than tipping it really opens possibilities. Drill a new burner port next to one wall and tip the burner towards the center a little will supercharge swirl in the chamber. Or and this is where my voices want to go is drill a new burner port in one side near the top. It would develop as strong a swirl but would superheat the roof's kiln shelf flame face which will put a space behind it to the good. Another kiln shelf on spacers for the floor and it should be much glowier. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 17 minutes ago, Frosty said: You keep using words like, exact, precise and <GASP> perfectly! And if not tongue in cheek, I use them wistfully; for these good things are just not in the cards. "To ere is human" and even worse, historic. The more new products that come on the market the more errors in judgement must be corrected On the plus side, at least the new gas forges get hot enough. So, before we shake a finger, it is good to remember all the 'red hot' forges that we used to see 1 hour ago, Frosty said: Another kiln shelf on spacers for the floor and it should be much glowier. What I like best about your idea is choice; he can use it to save fuel most of the time, and still have space for tall objects, likr helmets, bowls, or crucibles when needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Oh I know you weren't being "serious," I thought I'd play a little too. I'm big on wistful but I wist towards practical possibilities even if they tend towards logical extremes. For example the thought about a roof and floor separated from the insulating liner by an air gap instantly led me to consider a kiln shelf material manufactured as a one piece flame face that would be separated entirely from the insulation by a gap. That of course has me thinking about a sintered zirconia flame face. And right now I'm envisioning dies and presses necessary to make a decent size 93-97% zirconia box with 1/4" maybe 3/8" walls. Depends on how strong test billet are. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 4 minutes ago, Frosty said: but I wist towards practical possibilities even if they tend towards logical extremes. Oh, good one, Frosty! And written "in tune with the music," so to speak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Happily Rhonda distracted me between wistful and coming up with THE word. When I got back from walking her wist was all I could come up with and now Iike it better than the alternatives I was mulling over. Heck, I don't even know if wist is a word, means what I used it for and am not looking it up. I think I'll use it as is for a while. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 So, ye wist not to use it any other way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 Unless I discover it's a wisted effort, yes. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Argh! I need a cup of coffee before going any further with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Well, you know what they say, "wister though will." Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.