(Hypothetical Question) Could You Heat Metal to a Forging Temp w/ a Geyser?

[Christopher Yorin]

Hello Forgers of Metal!

Please bear with my lack of knowledge <3 I have only actually forged once with my uncle in his homemade forge almost a decade ago, though I can get the very basics someone might understand about metalworking.

I'm an author currently working on a fantasy book series and, while it is fantasy, I am doing my best to research the science behind things I am less knowledgeable about so that those in a particular field could pose a question and I could answer it with above-baseline knowledge  (such as astronomy to explain how black holes theoretically work, genetics beyond the Punnet Squares we were taught in science class, and my Bachelors in Archaeology (and a lot of Geology classes under my belt) to understand cultural diffusion and trade practices [like how the Vikings eventually used "pattern welding" forging for their weapons instead of the traditional Bog Iron earlier tools and weapons were made of]). Unfortunately, my current inquiry has left me with no viable answers because it is obviously theoretical and has no baseline in traditional smithing history. Fortunately, I found this site and I am hoping to find answers from actual blacksmiths about whether this hypothetical smithing process could actually work (I am aware this is not a site tailored to this sort of conversation, hence it is in the everything else category, but I would love to hear thoughts and would appreciate any feedback on this post given everyone's passion and knowledge of this artform!).

The Question: Could you Heat Metals to a Forging Temperature with a Geyser?

Where Did This Question Come From?

The dwarves of the world I have created are similar to fantasy dwarves; they are short and rotund, strong, live underground, and are master craftsmen. The differences though are quite a stark contrast; They are colorblind, have extreme sensitivity to bright/flashing lights, and because they evolved underground they suffer from radiation poisoning if they are exposed to sunlight without the fantasy equivalent of a hazmat suit (if you've seen the show The 100, you'll understand why that's a HUGE hurdle). Because of these negative traits, they can't use forms of forging that produce intense light (in a fantasy world, this would include magma from underground sources).

I came up with the theory that if the dwarves found pressurized chambers of superheated water that resided near magma pockets, then the dwarves could create forges out of "man-made geysers" that were constantly spraying out extremely hot water without worrying about the negative effects of bright lights. I thought this could make some sense given the science behind what happens when you pressurize things in a chamber (like a pressure cooker) and taking into the physics behind how wells are created using equilibrium (how water from a really low place underground can be brought to a high place using the volume of the water deposit and the distance to the surface to calculate the height the water would be at once tapped into). Obviously, there would need to be a way to keep the metal in place to make sure it doesn't get shot into the cavern ceiling above, but that's CLEARLY why the dwarves have built up so much muscle over decades to be able to hold onto those little buggers XD

What am I Hoping to Learn?

I'm not too concerned about how to shape the metals once they get hot enough as there are many different techniques to do so depending on if the metal is soft or hard (things like physically hammering it on an anvil to the way steel beams are manufactured with the giant machines to press it into shape). I know that heated water or oil is used in a lot of instances to temper metal when forging, as water is a fantastic thermal conductor. My hope is that I can get some knowledgeable answers about:

1. Even if this is not a viable method to heat metal in the actual world, could this be a solution to those who can't use fire-based forging methods?
2. If possible, what temperature would the forge need to maintain to heat metal consistently?
3. If not possible, are there methods that don't involve fire-based forging methods (besides cold smithing) that could be used in place of the traditional coal or gas-powered forge?

Again, I really appreciate all of your time if you dedicate any to this theoretical question, and I hope to one day follow in my uncle's footsteps of creating my own blacksmithing shop.

[Buzzkill]

I don't think it would be possible to super heat water anywhere near forging temperatures - even at extreme pressures.  Water turns to steam at 212 F.  We're generally forging steel in the 1400 to 1800 F range for simple steels, and we forge weld around 2300 F.

I'm not sure how you'd work it into your story, but one possibility that doesn't involve fire is induction.  Essentially these are strong localized electromagnetic fields which are capable of heating steel quickly.

However, there is one glaring problem you still have -- steel heated to the temperatures required for forging or welding glows brightly.  We risk eye damage if we look into the fire at the temps we use to move or weld steel for too long. Steel left in a propane or coal forge will reach the same temperature, which produces the same glow.  It would be as unbearable to look at the heated steel as it would be to look at what heated it.

Perhaps a better solution would be for the underground smiths to have found a volcanic glass material that is translucent.  They could make eye wear that blocks much of the light and allows them to work the metal.  You could even build into the story that these metal workers typically go completely blind after a number of years even with the eye protection.

[Buzzkill]

You could also make the real distinction between the UV type of radiation that exists in sunlight, along with the IR radiation, compared to pretty much "IR only" radiation that would be emitted from fire or glowing metal.

[Frosty]

The physics of heating water to forging temps means that releasing it would mean a stream traveling well in excess of the speed of sound, maybe mach 30 or so the example that comes to mind where I know for a fact it's water are the main engines on the Space shuttles. Those I know they are straight hydrox engines (hydrogen / oxygen) and those flames would melt the rocket engine alloys the combustion chambers, nozzles and bells are made from if the liquid propellants weren't circulated through them to do both prevent melting and preheating the oxy and hydrogen.  

In duction is a workable  idea, I could anyway. The only tricky part would be making it a high frequency alternating magnetic field. Generating electricity with a geyser is EZ PZ. I posit the same principle as the MHD, Magneto Hydrodynamic Drive. electro motive forces can be generated in water by passing an electric current through it in the presence of a magnetic field and conversely moving water in the presence of a magnetic field can be made to generate current. 

If it were my story I'd write about a many millennia old Dwarvish races and various cultures that mined and refined all metals and discovered the electromotive principle thousands of years ago. Some ancient Dwarvish tinkerer (No, not a tin knocker) was playing with his magnets and copper wires when he invented a controlled power generator only needing moving water. Hence the megawatt gyser driven magneto hydro dynamic "generators" were invented by the famous inventor Sparrkee The Hairless. 

That's the outline of how I'd write water heated iron ALA induction. That could actually be made to work.

My first choice seeing as it's a fantasy story and this method is a prime example of why magic isn't my idea of a good plot device. They're magic geysers, the right spells and it'll do what you're a powerful enough wizard to control.  No problem holding incandescent yellow iron in your hand, the magic geyser only heats one end. Or if you're twisting or another process requiring the whole length be heated you wear your magic gloves or use tongs.

"It's fantasy MAN, open your minds!" To quote Seth Skorkowski.

I just now realized I forgot about the bright light problem. Your metal head dwarven clans buy dark glasses from one of the many that cut and polish gems. Smokey quartz is kind of wimpy but . . . Its magic Man, OPEN YOUR MINDS! 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark Mountains.

Buzzkill and Frosty pretty much covered it. However since this is fantasy series,why not throw in some magician dwarves who could heat the metal to forging temperature without the bright radiation. Then the craftsmen could quench the steel in a geyser to temper it.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[George N. M.]

I like Frosty's theory to use induction heating.  Direct heating of the metal with super heated water fails because while you can heat water past 212 F under pressure once the pressure is released the water will flash to steam at normal atmospheric pressure.  I used to work around super heated steam in the steel mills and it is not something to mess with.  Imagine what happens to anything biological in at atmosphere of HOT gas.  Gas hot enough to heat metal to forging temperatures would be like the outer part of stars or the flame of an oxy acetelyne welding torch.

As others have pointed out, iron heated to forging or welding temperatures emits bright light, at least in the physics of this universe.  Even we creatures who evolved in bright sun light have to mitigate it.  Maybe your dwarves have evolved some sort of IR sensing that would allow them to forge bright metal without using their visible light vision.  And if they evelved in a low light environment they would have either BIG eyes or would depend on other senses, e.g. bats' echolocation or sensitivity to air or water movements used by various cave dwelling critters.

BTW, as an old geologist and miner I have always thought that one of the problems with Tolkien's and other fantasy dwarven underground workings is what did they do with all the waste rock and tailings.  For example, the Dwarven cities of the Lonely Mountain etc. would have genrated HUGE piles of waste rock which would equal the volume of the underground voids.  You can tell how large an old mine was by the amount of waste rock left near the adit (entrance).  Yes, ore is hauled off to a mill but mines produce much more waste rock by volume than actual ore (there are exceptions for large, low grade ore bodies, e.g. many open pit iron mines, but for most vein or fault zone hydro thermal deposits the waste/ore ratio is pretty high).

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[George N. M.]

PS  My editing window timed out.  So, I will add my later thoughts into a new post.

You could have your dwarves have evolved light attenuating nictating membranes to shield their eyes when exposed to bright light such as that emitted by forging temperature metal.  To us, when the nictating membranes where in place the dwarves would have black eyeballs.

Also, processing ore to metal produces a lot of tailings and other fine waste material which has to go somewhere.  The only way you can get around that is deposits of native metal such as copper or gold but those are pretty uncommon.  You will need to keep your geology realistic.

GNM

 

[Christopher Yorin]

I had a big ol post responding to each thing, but mobile version of this site is wonky.

I appreciate the replies IMMENSELY and took about an hour writing in depth about everything here to show how much thought I put into this and trying to learn the most I could from the suggestions and thoughts posted.

In short; Magic can solve any issue as long as you say it does, but then the world breaks and it's no fun anymore XD

Points I want to touch on:

Buzzkill's and Frosty's suggestions and explanations of induction are definitely looking like the way I will go as everyone here has explained really well why my hypothetical wouldn't be even remotely possibly. I also have magnets becoming this world's version of the industrial revolution so that's is entirely plausible for it to become widespread.

In regards to the light sensitivity, I already have them using obsidian goggles upon venturing to the surface, but that is in modern times for them so they would likely use a dark mineral or gem, or I thought about the Inuit's use of slitted birch bark to help reduce snow blindness. Anything could be an answer for that.

And for George's comment, I had so many things written. So, yes! They evolved many traits that make them perfect to live underground including pupils so dilated they are completely black and using their large ears to listen for possible cave-ins and their language of clicks, pops, and whistles. And I've seen exactly what you're talking about on a much smaller scale on a Paleontology trip to Pennsylvania and the Red River Basin area. There were some open air mines for coal and though they weren't the largest excavated areas I've seen, the amount of excess is simply UNFATHOMABLE XD I plan to take that into account and reduce its footprint by having the surface dwellers use it to make gravel roads and paths. Your comment was awesome to read!!!

Again, thank you to all who have taken the time to respond so far! I plan to check back in later today and see what else is talked about and take the things into account! Thank you!!!

[Frosty]

When you look into the mythology of Dwarves, Elves, etc. they were almost extinct before humans gained dominion over the Earth, they are the "Elder" races. You need to really expand your thinking about what was possible. Obsidian sun glasses would be a very early device maybe okay on a cloudy day. However there are simpler and far more effective ways to protect your eyes. Sooted lenses are EZ PZ and really old tech. Give it a try, take a pair of cheap safety gasses, adjust the wick of an oil lamp till the flame is orange or use a candle and hold the glasses over the chimney and soot them. You can adjust how much by how close or how long you perform the technique. Plastic lenses require more caution or the heat will warp then melt them but you can apply soot until they're completely opaque.

To think one of the Elder races wouldn't know about such a simple technique is unthinkable. Why don't your iron Dwarf clans just trade for sunglasses with one of the Glass clans? 

Seriously, the Elder races have been civilizations for thousands of years before humans learned to knap tools. 

To balance magic it needs to be hazardous to the caster and exhausting. Some magics would shorten lives or permanently alter health. You can NOT channel energy without paying the price.

George is exactly right about mundane mining and tailings. Too bad you aren't doing this as a science fiction story. Colonizing a planet and terraforming normally take a couple centuries but in my universe mineral extraction, especially iron is done by genetically engineered organisms that "eat" ore and excrete refined "whatever". They are drawn to specific places to "excrete" or lay eggs on the surface. When human colonists land on the surface refined materials are ready to use for infrastructure and trade with other colonies. 

That however is a speculative scientific solution. 

Were I writing a more fantasy version of magic user perhaps s/he would cast a spell where magic "smoke" flowed into the Earth and returned with the essence of what I wanted. Eg, pure gold, iron, silver, whatever. Hmmm? Or perhaps magically alter ants to mine for me and maybe worms to refine the metals. Magic "bees" could eat the refined metals and build what I wanted like honeycomb from wax.

You just need to balance rick and reward plausibly to allow the suspension of disbelief and make good story devices and Mcguffins. The little hawk sculpture is the MacGuffin in Hitchocks. "The Maltese Falcon." It did absolutely nothing in the movie except to exist, the whole story revolved (sort of) around it. It was the McGuffin.

You have decent ideas but there is a significant difference between an idea, a plan, and a refined product. Writing our stories is going to involve more editing and see the majority of what you write in the trash can. Honest, I know I've been writing since I was maybe 10 and have "good" ideas all the time but 99% would be unrecognizable before they made a publishable story. 

That's not to discourage you, it just is how it is. If you go into writing with a more rosy attitude you will likely give it up too soon to see your name in print. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Christopher Yorin]

Hi Frosty!

I really appreciate the constructive criticism!

I obviously can't go into the extensive details in my Anthology document since I started writing it a little more than a year ago and its about 200+ pages so I'll try to give a bit more context on the roll the Dwarves play since I wanted to take a sidestep of the modern versions of the typical Tolkien/D&D races.

Personal Background: I've been running D&D games multiple times a week from my own homebrew worlds for about 10 years now, my record was my sophomore year of college with running eleven 4-hour sessions and attending two sessions a week. Anytime I haven't been running games or rarely playing in them, to fill the quiet in my apartment, I am typically listening to DM podcasts, a diverse amount of gaming tables to see what worked and what didn't, and researching world building forums to help diversify my understanding of all the facets I can. That said, I have between 750-1,000 sessions run under my belt in only homebrew worlds, a couple thousand hours of listening/watching videos, and I'd say at least a few hundred hours of researching worldbuilding.

When I began researching about how to write a novel last year, I did a bunch of research into the genres I wanted to write, and I ended up deciding on a High Fantasy (Pre and Post) Apocalypse. The biggest hurdle with those genres was the fact that you have to be confident in worldbuilding, which I then said, "Oh, I've been doing that forever. That'll be the easy part." XD So my goal is to find that point where my worldbuilding reaches the negligible benefits compared to the amount of work I put in. I really enjoy Tolkien's works, but there is a point where you just have to accept that you can't answer every single question about why the baker in a town has a quarrel with the butcher next door because their grandmothers were sisters and they had a falling out due to... and so on. Its turtles all the way down, so you just have to give two degrees of separation when it comes to finding the line where worldbuilding syndrome begins. Though, a shallow world leaves nothing to the imagination of the players/readers so its important to not answer every question, but leave little threads everywhere and if you want to explore something, you know you already have a good base to start from! So I'm super excited to start refining my worldbuilding in another few months 

As for the Dwarves and Elder Races: I'll try to keep this a succinct and not get carried away since I could talk for days about my worldbuilding XD

- What's up with the Elder Races: The world that I've created has a really in-depth look at how the different planes of existence work and permeate with each other (around 30 pages), but the short and sweet version is to envision the circulatory system:
The nucleus is the Seen World [everything that can be observed to the very edge of spacetime and is constantly expanding with the more we understand about the universe].
The nuclear membrane [Belief Field] separates the nucleus [Seen World] and the cytoplasm [Unseen World], but can dilate and constrict to allow information between the two depending on what is requested by the nucleus via proteins [the amount of belief in something determines the strength of its influence on the Seen World].
The cytoplasm protects the nucleus and other organelles while filling in the gaps that exist in the cell walls [each of the organelles is a different layer of the Unseen World, so this is where the Fae reside, where gods from all sorts of beliefs create their domains, devils and demons lurk to find weak points in the Belief Field to influence and possibly infiltrate the Seen World].
The cell wall [The Veil] separates the cell from other cells and can still allow information to pass from one cell to another, though with great difficultly [The Veil essentially separates each universe and its timeline into distinct things].
The plasma that the cells float in [The Divine Realm] allows good and bad proteins, bacteria, and viruses to permeate the cell walls if they allow it [This is how gods can become omnipotent and exist in multiple universes, and things like dragons can be an almost universal concept across most universes]
The plasma is contained within the veins and arteries [The Story], always flowing as long as the being they are in is still alive.
Lastly, the space outside the arteries and veins is the unknown for everything within the circulatory system [The Void].

The core element of my worldbuilding theory is the Belief Field separating everything known and believed to be real from the endless possibilities that can be dreamt up and have yet to be created. The determinizing factor of how porous the Belief Field is is determined by the belief from humans. Humans evolved as we understand them to have done in our world, but they evolved with the unique magical ability that is useless when alone but reality warping when en masse. They believe that they are not magical and can only possess magic by means of many years of extensive training [your stereotypical fantasy wizard], but their magic is that the more humans believe in something, the more it manifests into their reality. As such, when early humans began telling stories around the campfire about all-powerful beings that created the world, the gods soon manifested in the Unseen World and began influencing the Seen World as true deities. The same principle goes for the fantasy races; once someone told a story about a tiny winged humanoid that would whisk you away if you weren't careful when traveling and thus the story spread and eventually manifested Faeries, Sprites, and Pixies given the nature of the story and the belief of what their abilities were. Eventually, if enough humans believe in something, it is permanently engrained into the Seen World and becomes as real as you and I. Humans agree on a concept of space and Goblinoids that pop up out of nothing appear and begin filling the abandoned spaces of the world like water rushes to equalize its volume. Humans calculate the passage of time and the Elves begin to appear in the forests and making their way to human settlements, while the Elves regress in age and have lives similar to the exponential radioactive decay of mother isotopes into daughter isotopes. Humans come up with stories about giant winged lizards that ruled the skies only for dragons to come crawling from the edge of a mist. Humans see rocks in locations they weren't in previous years so they believe that there are creatures in the mountain making it grow stones and thus the Dwarves begin to grow within the hearts of the mountain ranges.

So for this world, they are not considered a part of the "Elder Races" as that wouldn't make sense. I'd say that humans would only be at the very start of creating large communities due to agriculture becoming more prevalent so your get places like your real world Mesopotamia, Egypt, Cyprus, and Göbekli Tepe where they were pre-pottery Neolithic sites when these fantasy races begin to appear within a two or three thousand year span, so they mature alongside humans though their cultural diffusion is going to be influenced by geography, hence why the Dwarves developed a distinct culture from the others given the negative impacts of the surface have on them.

What about the Dwarves?: As for the Dwarves, this is their very brief description about their origin, appearance, and culture to show the basics about what I have so far for them, though they do have different cultures as they expand to other mountain ranges where different materials are available, which later form the Council talked about in this description (thank you ChatGPT for summarizing my 4 pages of lore).

Origins and Adaptations of Dwarves:
The Dwarves, unique creatures of Lauria, originated from the confines of The Forbidden Crown, the grandest mountain. They did not emerge as offspring or divine creations but grew organically within its rocky embrace. These early Dwarves expanded, creating the monumental city of Ur’kaas’tir. However, an ascent to the surface proved fatal, revealing their inability to withstand surface air and light. Hence, Dwarves seen on the surface must be heavily adapted. Distinctive in appearance, Dwarves stand between 3 to 4 ½ feet, boasting muscular and dense frames. Large ears and noses enhance their acute senses, critical for subterranean life. Notably, their majestic beards are not just symbols of pride but survival mechanisms. A past plague saw only those with protective beards survive. Without exposure to the sun, all Dwarves are albinos, displaying colorless skin and pitch-black eyes. Their language lacks terminology for color, and when venturing to the surface, they don protective clothing made from spider silk and obsidian lenses to shield against radiation.

Dwarven Society and Cultural Practices:
Renowned craftsmen, Dwarves excel in crafting monochromatic masterpieces from a spectrum of grays. Apart from their knack for stonework and metalwork, they dominate the textile industry, producing luxurious spider silk. This fabric mastery derives from their extensive knowledge in spider breeding, using the creatures both for utility and companionship. The vast Dwarven Empire, spanning multiple mountain ranges, follows a unique hierarchical governance, with an emperor or empress at its helm, supported by the Rognok Council. While the Dwarves largely remain isolated, any interaction with surface dwellers demands a precise vocal protocol. Evolving in the dark has honed their vocal skills, producing a range of sounds that serve various purposes. In conversations, status is paramount. Dwarves use soft vocalizations to signify their societal rank, and respect mandates that higher-ranked individuals initiate any dialogue. Missteps in this protocol can lead to dire consequences, including exile or being ostracized.

I have so much info on all the various races that I would love to continue discussing if anyone has any other questions, because, again, being in a solitary echochamber is not great for worldbuilding and outside influence is great to have!
Again, thank you Frosty for your comment! I'll see what I can look into regarding some specifics you mentioned like the soot coating as I absolutely understand the concept but had never heard of it before! I felt that a bit more background of my worldbuilding so far might help dialogue on this post 

*Edit*
Obviously, the Dwarves aren't the main focus of the story, but definitely important to the world and so understanding what I need to take into account like the tailings is something I didn't consider until now, but could have a lot of uses in general engineering with enough creativity!
Also! I'd love to read your work in the future since I also am a fan of Sci-Fi novels! Even a draft would be cool!

[George N. M.]

BTW, your dwarves being color blind could be a handicap in forging iron since we human smiths judge temperature of the metal by color.  A proxy could be how bright a heated piece of metal might be.  Also, if the dwarves have a higher sensitivity to IR they may be able to judge the heat of a piece more directly than just color.

BTW, if you want to read some good fantasy with good world building and science try much of anything by Poul Anderson, one of my favorite authors.

GNM

[Frosty]

Oh MY you are into minutia aren't you? If you want to sell stories you really need to learn to filter the details. Even my nerdiest friends wanted to save something of a story for their own imaginations. I burned out on D&D except for rare occasions in the late mid 70s. I tried to get my group of gamer friends to switch to Traveller but it was just too far across the line between realistic and playable. Currently I play "Call of Cthulhu" and we're getting a "Traveller" (v.M2)  campaign ironed out.

If you want to speculative stories you have to learn to draw just enough of a picture the reader can carry it themselves. Don't draw a clear enough image and you lose them to disinterest. Too much on the other hand and you lose them because they want to fantasize, not be lead step by step. I've bombed both ways, usually trying to keep it too close to MY vision and not letting the reader see their own. Too little and the friends who's actually read proofs typically asked what it was about.

You asked the forum a question about plausibility and I tossed out a couple concepts with some mechanics. It wasn't to get an in depth report about your vision for a fantasy universe. 

I hate to say this but your reply held me maybe half a paragraph before losing me but I skimmed a little more before moving on. 

You should study HOW Tolkien wrote, NOT what he wrote. He studied mythology, history, religion, war, and much  more, in depth for decades before really getting started on the cycles. He left libraries of notes and stories when he passed and much of his work has been assembled from them by his descendants. As a really young child he told stories non-stop, every rug, chair, tree, rock bush, stream had a story and/or Fairie resident. Even while serving in the trenches of WWI he was known for telling fantasy stories and of course drew much of the imagery for the war of the rings cycles from real life.

What you've described above is more detailed than much of Tolkien's work but his has the tremendous depth that comes from actually being there and leaving most of the mental imagery in the reader's head.

Another thing to remember, readers need to be able to associate with the story on some level, main character, furniture, street, town, sounds, smells, something to build their mental story on. If it's 100% the author's story there won't be many readers willing to suspend THEIR world for a story.

There are good stories in your universe I can smell them, let them on out to play.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[George N. M.]

I mostly agree with Frosty.  The thing is the story, who, what, why, how and the universe is only the framework in which the story happens You need enough details of the universe to understand the why of the story but only enough so that the why makes sense.  If you haven't I suggest that you either take some creative writing courses or workshops to learn how to construct and tell a story and the various ways it can be done and how to build beleivable characters. 

Building characters that evoke a reaction in readers, identity, dislike, etc. and that engage the readers so that they want more is IMO more important and more difficult than building a universe.  If you are telling a story of characters in Normandy in 1944 you don't have to explain the grand strategy of Operation Overlord and why it happen then and there except as to how it directly affects your characters.  And you don't have to put in the details of Sherman or Panther tanks.  But you may need details like whether an 88mm anti tank gun fires with a finger trigger or a foot pedal.

The author will always know more about the universe than the reader.  The reader only gets the details necessary for the story.  Like you say, the details of the Butcher vs. the baker are unnecessary except how they relate to the characters and the plot.

GNM

[Frosty]

I don't know if you're still following this thread Christopher but I finally ran across this again and thought it fit the thread. The characters are a fair fit to your story outline.

Frosty The Lucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34CZjsEI1yU&ab_channel=NapalmRecords