Final Questions before assembling forge

[Thursigar]

Questions:
1. Is 1/4" castable refractory a good measure? I'm debating between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. I've seen everything from 1/8" to 2 inches. My understanding is the purpose of the refractory is to protect the ceramic blanket, add durability, have a good surface to apply IR reflective, and make it thin so it's not too much of a heat sink.

2. Will 3/4' floor flanges secure a frosty T burner?

3. I've read lots of items regarding burner angles, and how its supposed to hit a durable surface (which is why Im using a kiln shelf). I am currently aiming for the inner edge of the shelf as not to create a hotspot on it. But I've now read that other people LIKE the hot spot effect to better target areas of a piece of metal for bending etc. I think that makes more sense?

[Mikey98118]

38 minutes ago, Thursigar said:

. Is 1/4" castable refractory a good measure? I'm debating between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. I've seen everything from 1/8" to 2 inches. My understanding is the purpose of the refractory is to protect the ceramic blanket, add durability, have a good surface to apply IR reflective, and make it thin so it's not too much of a heat sink.

2. Will 3/4' floor flanges secure a frosty T burner?

3. I've read lots of items regarding burner angles, and how its supposed to hit a durable surface (which is why Im using a kiln shelf). I am currently aiming for the inner edge of the shelf as not to create a hotspot on it. But I've now read that other people LIKE the hot spot effect to better target areas of a piece of metal for bending etc. I think that makes more sense?

You need to go with a 1/2" thick castable refractoy layer for sufficient durability.

Don't use a floor flange at all. I think Frosty came up with the floor flange as a practical way to mount burners on refractory tops of box forges, which have flat surfaces; they are not a practical mounting on curved surfaces.

Allowing the flame to impinge directly on your work is a good way to ensure rapid scale for formation, but is often a bad way to ensure rapid heating; it depends on the flame itself.

[Thursigar]

3 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

You need to go with a 1/2" thick castable refractoy layer for sufficient durability.

1

I've seen some super respected opinions (including yours) both argue for 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch. I might make two forges, one with each to determine which is better and then sell the other. 

3 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

Don't use a floor flange at all. I think Frosty came up with the floor flange as a practical way to mount burners on refractory tops of box forges, which have flat surfaces; they are not a practical mounting on curved surfaces.

 

Got it. Since I can't weld, do you have any other suggestions on how to mount the burners?

3 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

Allowing the flame to impinge directly on your work is a good way to ensure rapid scale for formation, but is often a bad way to ensure rapid heating; it depends on the flame itself.

What about trying to aim the flame on 1/2 of the shelf, so I can move my stock closer/further away as needed?  I was positioning at 1:00 and aiming for 5:00. Have the stock to the left of the flame at 6:00 and 7:00. If i need concentrated heat move it over to 5:00. Does that make sense?

[Mikey98118]

1 minute ago, Thursigar said:

I've seen some super respected opinions (including yours) both argue for 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch. I might make two forges, one with each to determine which is better and then sell the other.

I have wavered back and forth between the desire for efficiency and reliability. In the end, reliability wins on points; it is the practical choice

 

5 minutes ago, Thursigar said:

Got it. Since I can't weld, do you have any other suggestions on how to mount the burners?

There are two paths:

(1) Use the burner as a hand torch (if you don't have a welder or hand torch), and silver braze, or hard solder (zinc based) a pipe into the shell. After you cut a hole in the shell, you use a rotary stone, diamond embedded rotary burr, or  tungsten carbide rotary file, to shape the hole into an elliptical shape that will allow the pipe to be positioned at an angle; this method will allow you to keep very tight tolerances in a hand shaped opening (which is needed for silver brazing). Hard soldering with a zinc based allow allows gaps to be allowed.

(2) After grinding out the elliptical opening in the forge shell, slide the pipe in a short way, mark a line on the pipe, and cut sections from the pipe up to the line leaving tab shapes in three or four areas to remain. Bend the tabs at right angles after heating them with the burner. Drill holes in the tabs, and drill matching holes in the forge shell. Screw or rivet the pipe to the shell.

[Thursigar]

13 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

I have wavered back and forth between the desire for efficiency and reliability. In the end, reliability wins on points; it is the practical choice

 

There are two paths:

(1) Use the burner as a hand torch (if you don't have a welder or hand torch), and silver braze, or hard solder (zinc based) a pipe into the shell. After you cut a hole in the shell, you use a rotary stone, diamond embedded rotary burr, or  tungsten carbide rotary file, to shape the hole into an elliptical shape that will allow the pipe to be positioned at an angle; this method will allow you to keep very tight tolerances in a hand shaped opening (which is needed for silver brazing). Hard soldering with a zinc based allow allows gaps to be allowed.

Honestly, I'm struggling and really not sure what you are meaning here. I get the elliptical shape so you can angle the burner. But that's about it. Probably just my lack of knowledge in fabrication techniques. 

13 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

(2) After grinding out the elliptical opening in the forge shell, slide the pipe in a short way, mark a line on the pipe, and cut sections from the pipe up to the line leaving tab shapes in three or four areas to remain. Bend the tabs at right angles after heating them with the burner. Drill holes in the tabs, and drill matching holes in the forge shell. Screw or rivet the pipe to the shell.

Wouldn't this dramatically change the airflow in the burner pipe? I have to imagine it would wreak havoc and have flame etc coming out the tabs. Once again, maybe I am not educated enough to 7nderstand your instructions. Regardless, i appreciate your time and willingnessto help!

[Frosty]

On 12/1/2018 at 5:14 PM, Mikey98118 said:

I think Frosty came up with the floor flange as a practical way to mount burners on refractory tops of box forges,

Think again Mike the floor flange is a jig so you can keep everything centered under the drill bits and taps on a drill press table during construction. 

I make a sheet metal flange and tack weld it to a thread protector for a vertical mount on a flat roofed forge.

Who recommends 1/4" of refractory over blanket? That's a new one on me, I've seen folk ASK if it's enough but never recommend it. Am I not reading the right things?

Thursigar: Eliptical means oval. If you cut an oval shaped hole in the shell it will allow the cylindrical burner tube to move so you can adjust the fame angle in the forge. 

Good grief, buy a corner bracket like you see reinforcing corners on boxes and such. Drill a couple holes in the forge shell so the bracket matches the edge of the hole in the shell and screw or pop rivet it to the shell. Use a couple hose clamps to mount the burner to it. This will also let you move in in or out.

This isn't rocket surgery here, you're trying WAY too hard to "understand" things that just need to be done. I've been making effective burners for probably 35 years or so and I not only don't understand, I can't recite a SINGLE one of Bernoulli's principles but I took what handle I could get on them and used them.

Understanding is over rated. Relax and just do it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Thursigar]

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

Who recommends 1/4" of refractory over blanket? That's a new one on me, I've seen folk ASK if it's enough but never recommend it. Am I not reading the right things?

 

Larry Zoeller for sure, and one other person here on the IFI in one of the thick threads...Wayne maybe? 

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

Thursigar: Eliptical means oval. If you cut an oval shaped hole in the shell it will allow the cylindrical burner tube to move so you can adjust the fame angle in the forge. 

2

Yeah, I got that part of it. Easy enough. 

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

Good grief, buy a corner bracket like you see reinforcing corners on boxes and such. Drill a couple holes in the forge shell so the bracket matches the edge of the hole in the shell and screw or pop rivet it to the shell. Use a couple hose clamps to mount the burner to it. This will also let you move in in or out.

Wow, that is so simple! I really am over complicating this portion of it. Why haven't I seen this easy solution anywhere else. Thank you!

 

[Frosty]

Larry? Well, he is more of a burner guy, I'll have to shoot him an email and see what he says. I've been wrong often enough I'm used to it.

It's easy to get yourself lost trying to figure out suggestions from what, hundreds of folk with their own methods of doing things. Sometimes you just have to walk away for a while and let things perk. KISS is a golden rule for the craft though there is a reasonable limit. For example: (NO I'm NOT suggesting these things, they're just examples) You could wire the burner to  the forge. You COULD use muffler tape but you'd need to use a torch to set it unless your forge shell get's really hot. You could spend largish $ on through hull fittings. 

Just take your time, getting in a hurry only makes your mistakes permanent more quickly. Seriously you can make mistakes so fast you won't have time to correct them. Honest I know I have a couple collecting dust in the shop as reminders.

This stuff is supposed to be fun, relax and and let it be.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Thursigar]

On 12/3/2018 at 3:32 PM, Frosty said:

Larry? Well, he is more of a burner guy, I'll have to shoot him an email and see what he says. I've been wrong often enough I'm used to it.

 

Yeah, he has a couple of instructions on his website stating to use 1/4". I also see 1/4" used for Satanite (different material) on High Temp tools (http://www.hightemptools.com/faq.html#Satanite). 

On 12/3/2018 at 3:32 PM, Frosty said:

It's easy to get yourself lost trying to figure out suggestions from what, hundreds of folk with their own methods of doing things.

 

I would say I began this journey lost, and thanks to the hundreds of folks and their opinions I've become much more understanding of how a lot of this stuff works. I find I'm already able to answer basic questions that pop up on beginner blacksmithing groups, thanks to the likes of you!