dps9999 Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 hey guys so first let me say if this info is out there please just point me in the right direction i did do a search couldn't find much and what i did find seems to have conflicting info to other stuff i found......so that being said i just built a new forge and got two new burners. my old set up was only 10 in deep 8 in diameter 1 inch of inswool and satinite with a fire brick floor and a VENTURI burner. the new one is mostly the same 8 in diameter pipe 1 inch of inswool satinite fire brick floor but this one is 24 inches deep and has 2 FORCED AIR burners. so i have never used forced air burners before this so i am looking for a little advice on how to tune it. yesterday (while i was waiting for the satinite to dry on the new forge) i decide to take one of the new forced air burners and put it in the smaller old forge to see how it works. So now the only 2 things i played with was the air gate valve and the propane regulator. these new burners were bought from hightemptools.com as a kit and i put them together. so besides the air gate and the regulator it has 2 other valves (i always get the names of these two valves wrong but...) i think the one that has a handle that just piviots 90 degrees is a ball valve right? all that does is act as a quick shut off right??? the other valve is called a needle valve i THINK (if you click the link below it shows a picture of the burner the one i am talking about that i think is called a needle valve is the last little valve on the propane intake right before where the propane hose screws in) so anyway i didnt mess with that one yet. what is it for is it another shut off or does it help in tuning the burner? any help or advice on how to operate and/or tune these burners and what the "needle" valve is and how it works would really be appreciated! THANKS guys! picture of forced air burner....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on the operation aspects. The ball valve does allow you to quickly shut off the propane if needed and/or choose which burner will be in operation. Some people open up their regulators to maximum and use the needle valve for tuning the propane flow. The main difference in tuning is that every change in either air or propane affects the flame, whereas once a naturally aspirated burner is properly tuned it pulls in the right amount of air as the propane pressure increases. As for tuning I use a combination of sight and sound. It isn't difficult once you get used to what you are trying to accomplish. Once the fire has been going for a couple minutes I either cut back the air or increase the propane a bit until the burner flame gets lighter in color and the roar from the flames drops off just a bit. This is a rich flame that will burn cooler and produce more CO than is desired (for me anyway). Then I bring the air back up just a bit so the volume of the roar from the flame increases. At this point I have a slightly reducing flame and I leave it alone. If after a few more minutes I determine that it is hotter than I want I reduce the propane and go through the same process. If it's not hot enough I increase the propane and adjust the air in the same manner. Once you get used to the sight and sound you are looking for it is a quick and easy adjustment. To get a handle on it play with both the air and propane flow. You will hear the roar get louder when you are generally near the right mix. It will get quieter with either too much air or too much propane. Too much propane will also give you more flame at your openings, so make sure you're not standing in front of those when you are experimenting with the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 A valve handle that turns stop to stop in 90* is a "1/4 turn valve" whether it's a ball valve or not. These are in all probability 1/4 turn ball valves. The other valve is in the air feed and is NOT a needle valve. Just look in the end of the valve and see what it looks like when you open and close it. It looks to be a "gate" valve is used to control the air supply from the blower. To tune any flame you need to control the fuel and air. Gun (blown) burners are supercharged by the blower and being as there are two burners you need to control air and fuel for each one. The gate valve on the air line controls the air, the 1/4 turn valve just turns the gas on to the individual burner. The pressure regulator determines how much fuel will flow to the burners you adjust for flame qualities with the gate valves individually. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Frosty, There are needle valves on those burners. They are before the ball valves with a 90 degree elbow between the needle valve and the ball (or 1/4 turn) valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 20 minutes ago, Buzzkill said: Frosty, There are needle valves on those burners. They are before the ball valves with a 90 degree elbow between the needle valve and the ball (or 1/4 turn) valve. So there are. Are these burners intended to be used without a regulator then or is it an example of extra controls included by a designer who doesn't really understand the tool? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Not sure. From my own experience it is good to have a restriction on the propane so that there is a measurable pressure build-up that the regulator gauge can indicate. If it's a wide open line then you don't see any pressure no matter how far you open the regulator. A mig tip or needle valve would produce that effect and maybe help with recording specific known settings for a particular burner/forge setup. It would also allow 2 or more burners better tuning control from the same regulator. It may be overkill to some extent, but there's not much of a downside for the feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 hey guys THANKS! sorry for the late response i have been having problems with my computer.....anyway thanks for the description it gave a me direction to go it but as you said buzzkill i think it will take a lil bit of just messing around with it and looking and listening until i figure out that "magic" combination of air and gas i have gotten it running pritty good tho....as you guys were saying there are 2 valves on the propane end of things and a gate valve on the air end. i think the needle valve is kinda a combination of what you guys were talking about it may be over kill but it does help if your not using a regulator or if you run 2 burners from one tank and regulator it would let you adjust each burner independently neither of wich i have to deal with i am running each burner off its own tank and regulator (it just seems easier and i dont have the hose that splits to 2 burners but i do have 2 regulators and hoses so ...it works for me) i did finally get a email back from the guy i got them from and explained my whole set up and he basiclly said the same thing with the way i am running things i really dont need to mess with the needle valve just leave it open and use the regulator. either way i am happy i got a new toy! one thing i thought about tho....today i had a couple of guys come in to fix the transformer on a 30 something year old oil/wood burner furnace that heats the house long story short we are going to scap that one and get a new one so it got me thinking i am just curios (it would probily be more of a project than its worth) but has any one ever used oil instead of propane and use the burners that are in side these things...one of the guys actully showed me one of the newer burners he had in the truck and it seemed like it would be easy to mount and all that its got the main little pipe with a nozzel on the end and 2 smaller pipes one on each side and angled towards the nozel where the almost meet and that supplies the air....like i said easy to mount but how easy to make it work? as i said just curious if this has been done and how it worked out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 I hadn't considered that Buzzkill but I plumb gas differently. I run fro the reg to a manifold then to my zone valves and finally to the burner jets. This makes a relatively large reservoir of propane at gauge pressure and prevents the surging you might get going straight from the hose to the jet. Putting a needle valve in the circuit would smooth the draw out considerably and keep a steady back pressure on the reg. What kind of butthead thought of that mess? Oh wait a second, I'm the butthead! Oh well, I've been wrong so many times I'm used to it. I just should've realized it in this case, stuck on stupid again. Thank you Buzzkill I sincerely appreciate it when folk point out my mistakes. I'd rather Be right than THINK I'm right. I have some reading to do and questions to ask my friendly neighborhood professional gas burner guys at the HVAC company up the road. Yes, we talk. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 On 5/13/2016 at 6:39 PM, dps9999 said: so it got me thinking i am just curios (it would probily be more of a project than its worth) but has any one ever used oil instead of propane and use the burners that are in side these things...one of the guys actully showed me one of the newer burners he had in the truck and it seemed like it would be easy to mount and all that its got the main little pipe with a nozzel on the end and 2 smaller pipes one on each side and angled towards the nozel where the almost meet and that supplies the air....like i said easy to mount but how easy to make it work? Can it work? You bet. Is it worth the hassle to you? I don't know. I started with used oil since I have access to a constant supply. I made a siphon nozzle which atomized the used oil in a stream of compressed air. I still needed a blower to provide enough air for proper combustion. The bottom line is I switched over to propane and only have mild regrets when I go to get more. The simplest way I can put it is that there is a lot more that can go wrong and a lot more that has to be handle correctly compared to propane. Just for starters think about the different flow rates of an oil at 0 degrees compared to 100 degrees. One gallon of used oil may be slightly different from another gallon, unlike oil directly from a manufacturer. For me there was a lot more "tinker time" with the fuel and air adjustments, more mess, and more hassle than it was worth. On 5/14/2016 at 3:04 AM, Frosty said: Thank you Buzzkill I sincerely appreciate it when folk point out my mistakes. I'd rather Be right than THINK I'm right. And that is one thing I really appreciate about you and this site in general. A lot of effort goes into trying to provide accurate information, and good information can be priceless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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