Gavin Rondeau Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 So, this is pretty close to my first post here but I've been a lurker for a long time and I think there's a lot of collective intelligence and insight on this forum. I'm a member of a local (Wichita, KS) maker space and we've just recently moved into a substantially larger facility. I'm the official benevolent dictator of the metal shop (due entirely to enthusiasm and not to expertise) which means I'm now in charge of safety, shop layout, advising the board regarding equipment purchases and etc. The space is 9000 sf total and the shop area is a 48'x59' warehouse space that the metalworking shop will share with a fully equipped (and enclosed) wood shop and a small ceramics/pottery area. We're working on finalizing the space allocation within the larger volume as well as working on layout and equipment and etc. as I mentioned above. The metal shop has a porta-band type saw, a HF mini mill and HF mini lathe, a small wire welder and a Johnson 120 forge and 100 lb. LPG cylinder. We currently have plans and (donated) funds to purchase a Tormach 1100 CNC mill and a budget of $10500 for additional purchases of tools, infrastructure and safety gear. We're looking at doing some rewiring that would leave both the wood shop and the metal shop each with a 200 amp box conveniently sited on opposite sides of the space and we're investigating having an existing natural gas line rerouted to the metal shop side and setting the forge up to run on that. Ventilation is going to be an issue but we're working on that too and I think it's solvable.We hope to expand our capacity in the most flexible way possible in addition to being a place people can access more specialized gear than they could support in many home shops including possibly a treadle hammer, a manual lathe, more and better welding equipment, grinders, sheet metal tools and possibly, in the future, a small/medium scale casting setup. So, any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Get a forge that will not run your gas bills out the roof! Johnson's are more production level forges and most of the time you could do very well with a forge that uses 1/10 the propane. If you use a blown burner system it may be usable with either fuel if designed for it. (a needle valve controlling the gas inlet should do it as blown forges are not so picky about orifices, many of them just dump the gas in from a small pipe) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 You might want to talk with the folks at the Idea foundry in columbus OH http://www.columbusideafoundry.com/ they moved into a huge new location about a year ago: http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/02/the-largest-makerspace-on-the-planet-opens-in-columbus-ohio/ and have an active metalworking group including blacksmithing and foundry work (run by friends and exstudents of mine...) as well as the usual CNC, laser cutting, etc.They may have some ideas proven in by experience that would help you out. If you talk with the hot metal crowd tell them I said Hi! (and Bwahahahahahahahaha) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Rondeau Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 Thomas, Thanks for the response. That's super useful info about the Idea Foundry! I'm going to contact them for sure. Re: the Johnson, it's a smallish one that belonged to a knifemaker. It's forced air and was recently relined. It's only 13" deep. Is there something inherent to the design that makes them really inefficient? Since we have it we'll probably use it but I'll keep an eye on fuel consumption. If it's that bad then we'll probably build a new one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 It's the pedestal "heat treat forge" is it not? I just traded one off as it did not suit my needs. And yes even that version is a gas hog compared to a typically made cylinder forge.I can have 6 beginning students in the one I made from a section of Oxy cylinder and kaowool at a SOFA gas forge building workshop. (If you need a very large forge look into the ribbon burners.) As a test hook it up to a BBQ sized propane tank and see how long it runs in a typical day's use.If it was religned; perhaps they used a more insulative liner, the hard liner mine had was tough but took some heating to come up to working temp!If you will be doing blacksmithing; you will probably want a range of forge sizes; just like you would not have only a dump truck as your transportation just because twice a year you need to get a load of gravel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Rondeau Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 Once again, thanks! Since it's designed for heat treating I guess the thermal mass would reduce temperature swings from adding stock but increase the warm up time, right? I forgot to ask the seller what he lined it with but I guess we'll find out when we start using it in anger.This forge kind of dropped into our laps and, I admit, I pushed for it. I should have done some more due diligence. I like the dump truck analogy, I might crib that from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Hey they are good forges, I used one back in Middle School in the early 1970's; bought one rigged for natural gas at a school auction back in the 90's... I just wouldn't use it as the everyday forge but the "lets all get together and do XYZ!" forge.Don't let that being your only forge stop you from forging. Shoot building forges is a great start up project for a maker space! (And the more different ones you work with the better idea you get at what you want in a forge.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Rondeau Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 We definitely won't let it stop us! I keep having to restrain myself from going whole hog with blacksmithing stuff and taking everything over. The wood shop guys are doing that a little bit and I have to push back for the metal shop. I don't want there to be four forges, two power hammers, six anvils, a partridge in a pear tree and no room for anything else (actually, I would love it but that wouldn't serve the larger purpose). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Dedicated and shared space, shared space to be reserved ahead of time and limited in timespan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Your welding area needs to be either separate or able to be screened from the others. UV isn't your eye's friend.Check out the Johnson's liner, if it's the stock hard fire brick you can replace it with either insulating fire brick or an inner liner of split hard fire brick and wrap 1' 8lb. Kaowool around that for insulation. The hard firebrick you remove from the Johnson (if you do) will make a dandy table deck you can do torch work on or erect brick pile forges for those special shape projects. A fire brick table is a good thing in a hot shop.You'll want a properly safe torch cart too so no matter how a ham handed student knocks it over the tank valves can NOT hit anything.Keep the wood shop in another room if possible, saw dust and ignition sources mix alltogether too well. run the direction of air flow FROM the hot work areas towards the woodworking area for the same reason.Contact the local vocational school, college extension service, OSHA (just don't tell THEM why!) and see if you can get some information about setting up a multi use shop safely. You should also be able to get basic classroom instructional information, movies, etc. but most importantly safety and basic first aid info and movies.Heck, maybe you can enlist an old shop teacher.Oh, basic safety. Nobody and I mean N-O-B-O-D-Y enters the shop without WEARING eye protection and not just eye glasses glasses, proper safety glasses with side shields and preferably poly carbonate lenses. Yes you can get them in scrips, mine are trifocals.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 A couple of the old general shop textbooks can help new people with basic questions---how to rivet, drill, file, etc and are often very cheap on the used market. Of course they will need to be in a protected location... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Rondeau Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 The wood shop is going to be framed in with its own separate dust collection and, I think, HVAC. There will be a dedicated space for hot work. We have the forge and a couple of electric kilns for ceramics already. I am looking into movable partitions/welding screens for UV protection. The torch cart is a good idea. I'll be looking into that. We're planning to have a bin for safety glasses and hearing protection by the doors and an ironclad rule for their use. We're instituting a tiered training system, essentially certifying people for use of the more dangerous/fiddly/complicated equipment but I also like the idea of those shop manuals for basic stuff. I'm also planning to have some workshops covering many of these techniques.And thanks, guys! This stuff is all gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 A set of school lockers people can rent to keep their project stuff local, they supply the lock understanding that it will be cut off if they over run their lease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 the common shop practice when I was going was to have to pass the classroom use and safety test before using any tool. Part of the test was doing the required project and power tools required a period of probation before being allowed to just use it.For example basic metal shop 1 hand tool project #1 was a set of dice. After the class sessions the student was given a piece of sq. stock 2x the necessary length. The student measured and laid out the cut marks and used a hack saw to cut two cubes. Not hard? Ever try to explain cut allowance to a 13 year old? Kerf, what's kerf? You gotta allow for the thickness of the saw blade AND shaky saw technique inability to follow a line? No WONDER you had to buy 2x as much as the dice needed. Once you had two matched cubeish blanks you got to learn how to operate a draw file and keep everything square while you coaxed them into matched cubes to tolerance of +0.001/-0. Now you get to lay out and EVENLY center punch the pips, careful boys, accuracy counts. finishing consisted of draw filing the rims from the punched pips and progressively hand sanding to a 400 grit finish and oiling.Grade was calculated on accuracy across the board. No I didn't get an A, even though Dad taught me how to do all this stuff long before metal shop class. You bet I had a teen'tude, enthusiastic oh yes but still the know it all kid. Kids who'd never set foot in a metal shop did better than I, I grew up working in a metal spinning and machine shop, I already knew it all. <sigh>Anyway, this stuff is dangerous, one step at a time, no exceptions to the rules.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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