Need Help on a Detail Development

[HWooldridge]

I am working on a new design for a stand (fireplace tools, candles, etc.) and I am trying to develop a three leaf clover to put at the end of two branching bars. I have seen these in Yellin's work and they are fairly common in quartrefoils but I am having trouble with getting the forging correct. I started with 1/4x1/2 flat and welded a short section, then fullered in two spots to get the material blocked out but it just smashes out and loses the detail when I flatten it. I have been successful making the cutest little figure "8"'s you ever saw and believe I have to get three spheres formed before I can flatten into the clover shape but how to do that is beyond me right now as I type this. Any guidance is appreciated - thanks, Hollis

[Strine]

H
You probably have worked out how big a shamrock you'll get out of the half by quarter. So neck the bar to roughly the size of the stalk, leaving a lump on the end that, when flattened will be enough for the leaf: Shape the lump into a rough hexagon but not too thin: Cut the hex into three with a hacksaw or hot set but don't go all the way to the centre. One of the divisions will be made with a cut on either side of the stalk. This gives you three bits to shape into round leaf sections. You may have to push two sections out of the way to work on the third. Try it in the modelling clay first.
I hope this is what you're after and I hope that it works. It's just what I might do in the first instance not having made any shamrocks. The method would probably change once the bugs were ironed out.
Making the flower is going to be another challenge :lol:

[HWooldridge]

Thanks, Strine. I did find a picture of what I am looking for in Don Plummer's book, Colonial Wrought Iron, on page 90, item 2-16. The upside double "C" has this detail - but it now that I look at it, seems more like a club than a clover. In studying this, I may be using the wrong stock. Please look at the photo if anyone has access to the book and let me know what you think.

[Swamp Fox]

I found this leaf veiner on the iforgeiron site the other day. It may be part of an answer for you. Make the leaf and put the veins in as the last thing.

[Ed Thomas]

How big are we talking? I don't have Streeter's book, and am having a bit of trouble imagining what you mean. Can you draw a picture? As I understand it, you are trying to set up a solid flat finial, rather than an open figure like a quatrefoil. So it it a matter of getting the material in the right place before you flatten it?

If so... maybe you could make a cross (a 't') and flatten the arms and top. That would leave the cross-section thicker in the middle, but that's okay, isn't it? You'll have a lot of contour and the bottom arm will already be in the right place.

Sure wish I knew exactly what you were aiming for... :?

[HWooldridge]

Ed,

Plummer's book has a pic if you have it - I'll see if I can figure out some way to post something.

Three nice round petals that make a three leafed clover is about the best way I can describe it. Basically, it's a piece of stock bent tight and flattened after some sort of creative fullering to get the lobes pulled out. The final form is a tri-lobe that looks something like a "club" from a card deck.

[Ed Thomas]

Hollis:

Yep, I meant Plummer... don't have that either.

Is this roughly what you were talking about? I decided to try it just now and see if I'm getting the idea from your description.



It is forged by splitting 1/2" square into a small 't' at the top and spreading the arms to be the leaves. I didn't labor over it to make it purty; just wanted to see if this was something you could use. Obviously, it would benefit with more care in shaping the petals and a bit of file work.

[HWooldridge]

Yah, Ed - that's real close but it's done in a bend so the middle lobe is part of the parent stock and the other two are each on a branch.

How did you attach a pic to the text - is it a link to the Iforge Gallery or something else? Let me know and I'll scan in the pic from CWI.

[Ed Thomas]

Hollis:

I think it would be just as easy to allow a bit more stem on the two side lobes and hammer just the end. That way it would look like branches, and you could bend them any way you want. Including folding the two side lobes up a bit so they look more like three individual leaves than three petals of one leaf as I tried to do here.

However, I think there is a point of diminishing returns on this particular technique of splitting and fullering. At some point, it would be easier to forge weld leaves.

If you right click on any picture on the internet, you get a menu of things to do with it, including displaying its properties (the last item on the list). So if you see something you like somewhere, you can right click on the picture, select "copy image location", and paste that here inside your post.

Then highlight the whole link, and click on the "Img" button above the text editor you are using to enter your post. That will put on either end of the link. That tells the forum screen to go to that location, and treat that particular link as a picture.

So if it is your own image, you can upload it to the gallery (or anywhere on the internet you like to store images), right click on the image while viewing it in the Gallery, and select "copy image location". Then when you come back here, just paste it wherever you want in the post.

If you right click on the picture I posted, you can select "properties" and see where it is actually stored... in this case, the gallery. But as you know, I have a lot of fun posting pictures that are stored around the internet by other folks. :mrgreen:

[Strine]

Hollis, I think the plot has thickened. A picture is going to help no end as I think we are not grasping what it is you want to do.

[HWooldridge]

Let's try this:



Not a good pic but my scanner in on the fritz...

Note the two double "C"s and the acorn/club. Definitely one piece and appears in the book photo to be made from square stock. As I study it, I think a fuller was used to pull the sides out and then the tip (middle) was flattened after the piece was folded.

[Ed Thomas]

Hollis:

I'll see if I can get back out to the shop tonight and try this:

Forgeweld the square stock back on itself, just like a quatrefoil. Neck the end and then again below the "arms". Fuller & flatten, and ornament. It looks like nothing added to the original material. So I think this should be routine.

I might not get another chance at this for awhile if I don't do it tonight. :?

[HWooldridge]

Ed,

Thanks for experimenting. What you described is what I think I tried - but I only got a shapeless blob when I flattened it. Maybe I didn't fuller in far enough.

[sandpile]

It is probably because I can not see the pic well enough. But I can not see getting enough matertial, with out upsettting before folding it back on it self, to do the fullering

Just a thought.

Chuck

[HWooldridge]

First try...my wife has been in Alabama for four days and got back tonight - I jest cain't think strait when she's gone...da dum, da dee...

Double back the material until it is completely closed. This was a piece of 3/8 round that I forged square before proceeding. Take a fuller and pull the nose out first (the middle one). Take a ball peen or a bob punch and pull out each side. Heat the whole thing and then cool only the form so you can pull the legs to each side.

I needed a smaller ball to pull the sides because they wound up bigger than the nose and I want the proportions the same.

Y'all take a turn and play with this form - I think it can be added to lots of different things for a colonial look.

[Ed Thomas]

Sandpile: There is no need to upset. There is enough material.

Hollis: I did the exact opposite of you... I welded WAY too far down.

Anyway, I just tried what I said and it works fairly well. The idea is to weld, and then use a pair of set dies, rather than fullering dies. That way you define the boundaries much better. If I had to do a few hundred of these this way, I'd make a die that swaged the top and the bottom of the 't' at the same time.



Like yours, this is 3/8" stock. There is more than enough meat left on this (about 1/8") to pretty much shape the leaf any way you want. I didn't do any filing or tooling, but you can see the potential is there already.

I like what you came up with, but it looks like you nearly hit the limit of material movement already to get that far. But if you had a few hundred to do, it would certainly be quick.

Something teases the back of my memory about using dies for some of the quatrefoil elements. I'd sure be tempted to develop that if I had a whole gate or fence of these things. Loosely shape the weld, and smack it into a pair of dies. All done but the detail filing.

If I can find another slot of time to play with these, I might work to make a pretty one. As you said, it is worth the effort.

[Ed Thomas]

Hollis: I think I would definitely forge-weld at least a little bit. Maybe only twice the material thickness. I don't know why I got so carried away. It's been a few years since I made any quatrefoils, so I guess I have an excuse. :oops:

[HWooldridge]

Ed,

I think this little form has a lot of potential - with either method - but I agree with you that it looks better with some welding - mine looks like I don't know how to forge weld or that it split. I also think square bent on the diamond for the branches before forging the acorn would look pretty cool.

[Strine]

Well there you go. There are not too many clover leaves in my lawn that look like that.

If you can't weld the end would it be advantageous to upset at the bend, before bending to leave a bit more material to playwith. A forge weld seems to be the go though.

Could you forge a rounded diamond shape on the end and make controlled nick with a cold chisel to define the leaves and then forge them to a final shape.

I'm inclined to describe the shape as more medieval than colonial as well. It just has that feeling about it.

[Ed Thomas]

Strine:

Yes, you could do a bit of tooling to guide the shape better. One thing that Hollis wasn't pushing was that these elements were literally made by the hundreds -- often four crosses/leaves/etc per quatrefoil. Each quatrefoil would be one of zillions (or more :mrgreen: ) in a gate or railing. So I was trying to keep to a method that would come easily out of the fire, get forged and move on. You're right... there are lots of cool things you can do with this union, as seen by the incredible richness of Yellin's work.

[HWooldridge]

Final stage of development and where I used the element. For anyone who might want to create something similar, the basic steps are as follows:
1. Bend double a piece of 3/8" square and forge weld for about an inch. (2 heats)
2. Take a large fuller and draw the nose out then use a bob punch or ball peen to make the 'ears'. (2 heats)
3. Heat the whole thing and cool only up to the ears, then pull the legs out. (1 heat) The legs can then be finished however strikes your fancy.

No filing done anywhere on the piece - left in as-forged condition. I used the MIG to tack the element to the sconce and candle cup was fastened with 1/8 rivet. Piece was finished by sand blasting, followed by gun bluing and light abrasion with grit cloth, then a coat of clear satin urethane.

I listed the heats for the trilobe element only to illustrate how much time might be needed if you had to do a bunch.

Edit: photo resized, detail added

[Glenn]

Hollis, I added a detail shot. Very interesting pattern on the sides of the support and the grove down the middle of the element. This is the type of things that makes a project come alive. Good job.

[Ralph]

Nice work.
Seems like if you could fingure how to fasten the trifoil to the candle bracket with collars it would be pretty spiffy. Or small rivets. NOt that it is not spiffy now.. To be honest I just doomed myself by showing the pics to Dawn. Once I get back into smithing form I see that this type of thing will be in my future.

BTW is it possible to see a pic of the die used to make the rope braid on the sides? Thanks.

8)

[HWooldridge]

Glenn and Ralph,

I agree about collars or rivets on the bracket - I just got tired and took the easy way out.

I'll take a pic of the grooving and rope tools and post them.

[Ralph]

Going to have to learn to Mig.... you work is nice and clean looking a bonus in my mind