Hydraulic Forging Press Build....a few questions...and advice!

[McClellan Made Blades]

Hi guys and I'm sure a few Lady's,
I am at the very BEGINNING, of the process, of building a Hydraulic Forging Press. As with most everyone money is tight, because of that, and the realization that I do enjoy and get satisfaction out of building my own equipment, I decided to build my own Hydraulic Forging Press. I have decided on the vertical
set-up, using an I beam as the foundation, the cylinder is attached to the top of it with the clevis pins, then there is a shorter I beam that is welded directly in front of the main beam, where the bottom dies are attached. I'm not sure if anyone has seen this type of configuration for a forging press, the problems I'm having are which parts should be purchased first, I'm a bit apprehensive about buying any certain part and then getting cornered into having to use specific parts that I may not want, or find a great deal on another part and find that the 2 aren't compatible. I'm starting to think I may be over thinking this, or worrying too much about losing a few dollars. I do understand that i will have to spend some money to build this, I am not niave to the fact that this stuff is not cheap, but I also know that with a little bit of determination, armed with knowledge and a little help from anyone I can get it from can go a long ways to keep what little money I do have and still be able to build a quality machine. So I'll ask my question like this.

Are there parts that are more important to buy first?

What experiences have any of you guys had with cylinder strength?
The formula I found uses the bore and rod sizes, it's actually a calculator I found on Surplus Center's website. So far, what I understand is that the rod size needs to be a minimum of 2 inches (in order to get the amount of strength I want), I am trying to save up for a cylinder that has, at the least a 4 inch bore, 5 would be much better, but I haven't found any with a 5in bore that were affordable. I don't have all of my notes with me, but I have a fair understanding of what I want to do and I hope that maybe someone here might be able to shed a little more light on this subject. I do want it to have around 20 tons of mashing power. I would settle for a little less, like somewhere between 15 and 18 tons, but I don't want to go any less.

I have found the cylinder for this, which would cost less than $200 at Surplus Center, I can't remember if it is a 2500 psi or 3000psi, which brings up another question, which one is best? 2500 or 3000?

And, If I have a 3000psi pump and get a 2500 psi cylinder, will that work together?

Here's another question I was wondering about, do ALL the parts have to be rated or "related" (to or) for each other? I'm not sure if I'm asking that question the right way. I've seen so many parts, and pieces that go to this build, 1 being the valve. I have heard that a regular Log Splitter valve will work, but I don't know what the correct terminology is, for that type of valve. I would like to be able to have all the correct names/terminology so that I can shop for the items I need, again to be able to save money. I know I will have to spend money to build this thing, and I don't have unrealistic expectations, I just want to find the best, most economical way to do it, and when I get done, I plan on having a list of all the parts and where to get them, where I found the best deals, where maybe someone else can benefit from what I learned and be able to build one as well, Thanks for any and all help I can get from you guys, I appreciate the fact that so many of you will stop what you're doing in your busy day to help out us Newbs, to the world of HOT STEEL! Thanks Again, Rex

[Backwoods Blacksmith]

My 30 ton press is powered with a 3 hp mtr, 11 gpm 3500 rpm pump and a 3 in ram. The rod is 1 1/2. You could also use two 2 in rams instead of one big one. Look on this site for examples also on u-tube. Lots of examples out there
Loots of luck and be safe
OH and have fun

[macbruce]

I'm building a bending press that has a 4'' cyl with a 2500psi pump at 1.3 gpm (too slow for forging imo) that will give me a tad more than 15 ton. If your speed is too slow the dies will suck the heat away before you can get much done. My H frame has a 5'' cyl with a 10 hp motor and 11 gpm and it's pretty good for forging at 25 ton......I don't want to seem critical but if your fabricating and welding skills aren't up to snuff you can get into deep doodoo if things break on one of these......Can you take a pic of a drawing and post it, that would help.... :)
Also you can generally set the pressure relief valve on a 3000psi pump to a lower setting no problem.

[Randy]

Yea, not the thing to guess about. Usually the cylinders are the first thing to purchase as they determine the size pump that you need and then that determines the size motor that you need. Also the I-beam frame will have to be built to safely support what ever tonnage you come up with. Best deal out there is a great book on the subject. The bible for building a press: "Build Your Own Hydraulic Forging Press" by Jim Batson. It can be purchased at the American Bladesmith website:

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/index.php?section=product&subsection=product_details&product_id=30

This will answer all of your questions
.

[Daniel.85]

Listen to Randy and buy that book! I purchased it and it is one of the best sources I found for info on forging presses and the hydraulics specific to them. For the cost of building a press, $30 isnt much.

[McClellan Made Blades]

Wow! Thanks Guys! I probably should say that I do know my limitations, and welding would not be one of my best skills, I do OK for simple stuff, but when you're talking about several tons of force jacked into one spot, it is a real serious situation, I have a fab shop down the road from where I live, I'm hoping that I can get everything welded to it at one time, and still be able t move it. That is my only concern about taking my parts to the welding shop, if I see that it is going to be too heavy to move, I have a friend that is a welder, (I would prefer to pay the guy at the fab shop than to owe a favor!) but he has all the equipment to come to my shop and do everything, this guy is a certified welder, he's been doing it for over 30 years, he can stick, mig, tig, Oxy/acy, and I'm sure if there is some other methods I haven't heard of, he can do it! He's the type of guy that wouldn't allow me to pay him, then whenever he needs help moving or some other task that'll take up 3 or 4 weekends, I'd be the first one he'll call! And I would feel bound to help him, so we're going to shoot for the fab shop!

I don't have a lot of time right now, but to answer some more questions quickly, I am familiar with Dr Batsons book, and do intend on picking one up before I begin buying or building.
Thanks Randy, the cylinder will be my first purchase, although I may go ahead and get the welding/fab part taken care of once I get the plan together, and Macbruce, I can do better than a drawing, I have a picture of one of these owned by Bruce Bump, it looks to me like the perfect forging press, provided I can figure out how to add pics on here, I'll post one up. And check back tonight to see what you all think, Thanks so much , Rex


BOY DID I just get LUCKY! This is a great pic of Bruce's Hydraulic Forging Press, I'm not sure how many of you may know or maybe heard of "Indian" George Rebello, which I probably spelt his last name wrong, I do believe this design, either came from him or was a collaboration between him and Bruce, not sure about that, I do know that I.G.has done a lot of work with building this type of press. I talked to him a few months ago, I am from Alabama, he is from, I think either Maine or Minnesota, he sounds like he is sitting in Boston! He has an accent so strong, that during an hour long phone call all we got was frustrated, he couldn't understand me and I couldn't understand him! I told him, "You'd think we were from different countries", he said, "You are", understood that clearly! He's a great guy and really tried real hard to help me, but the language barrier was just too much to overcome!

Randy, I'm going to be getting on the cylinder here in a week or so, not sure if I'll buy it first and get the welding done, or if I'll get the welding done, and wait on the cylinder a little while longer..........oh crap, I just realized a little something that totally left my friggin brain, CHRISTMAS! CRAP! OK, well, now I'll be getting back with y'all, let me see what the budget will allow, I may have to wait until next year! Dang it! You know when you realize that you screwed something up while typing it is hard not to type the curse words you were thinking! But I controlled myself, just so danged disappointed, this build has been put on the backburners for quite sometime, I've been sidelined with a severe back condition for several months now, no knifemaking, no shop working at all. Heating pad and ice everyday I come home from work, now I'm slowly getting back to working in the shop after a procedure I had last week, feeling much better, but I still have to be super careful. I was getting so amped up about finally seeing the right diection to go and now that I know how to get started...well, I'll not say for sure that I'll have to put it off for too long, it all depends on how much Christmas costs. Y'all check this pic out and let me know what you all think about it, let me know if you all have seen one like this, I'm not positive this is an I.G. creation or not, I do know that he has built a couple like it. Thanks again Guys, I really appreciate everyone chiming in, and the concerns for me being safe, quite touching actually. Who would have thought a bunch of burly blacksmiths could be so sensitive!?!?! Awww, I'm kidding, I know what's up, just a bunch of great people looking out for their fellow, Brother-n-Steel! A Sincere, Thank You! But not to worry, there was no chance in me welding that up, my welds wouldn't hold for a 10th of that force, that's why I only weld non weight bearing type stuff. Anything that needs REAL welding either goes to my Bro-n-Law, or my other buddy, that is the last resort, I know the last time I used him I stuffed a $50 in his pocket, and told him to be quiet, for 20 minutes worth of work and maybe 3 minutes worth of welding, I felt like I may have been close to the right price! Ok I gotta run, I'll check back tonight and see what you all think, provided I don't go to the shop, if I can work a couple of hours I may not be able to check back tonight, so it'll be tomorrow, Thanks, Rex

[Randy]

Whoa! I think you need to put your brakes on. You're jumping too far ahead. First, get the book. Second, figure out what you're going to use the press for. Third, then figure what tonnage and then what frame will work best for what you want to make or do with the press. If it's just damascus billets then a 24 ton C-frame, like your photo will be fine. If you want to do more with it and bigger material you may need a bigger press. Remember that tonnage is per square inch so if you're working a 3" square under the press then you only have a third of the force, or something like that. I've got a 60 ton press H-frame press and there are times I'm only doing 3/16" plate, but it's a 4" square and the press is straining to get the job done. With this information now you can start buying a cylinder and designing the frame. But not before.

Then you need to figure where your motor, pump and tank are going to go. Attached to the press? Under it? On a separate cart?

Don't forget to plan on safety and only get parts that are correct for a press of your tonnage. Piping, hoses, etc. Also don't forget to get protective sleeves for all of your high pressure hoses. They are cheap and a must! Don't go cheap. Buy what's required or better. Most of my parts came from Northern Tool. A good source for hydraulic supplies and motors.

Hand operation of presses means you only have one hand to hold the hot metal. Come up with some type of foot control.

I hope this helps.

[McClellan Made Blades]

Whoa! I think you need to put your brakes on. You're jumping too far ahead. First, get the book. Second, figure out what you're going to use the press for. Third, then figure what tonnage and then what frame will work best for what you want to make or do with the press. If it's just damascus billets then a 24 ton C-frame, like your photo will be fine. If you want to do more with it and bigger material you may need a bigger press. Remember that tonnage is per square inch so if you're working a 3" square under the press then you only have a third of the force, or something like that. I've got a 60 ton press H-frame press and there are times I'm only doing 3/16" plate, but it's a 4" square and the press is straining to get the job done. With this information now you can start buying a cylinder and designing the frame. But not before.

Then you need to figure where your motor, pump and tank are going to go. Attached to the press? Under it? On a separate cart?

Don't forget to plan on safety and only get parts that are correct for a press of your tonnage. Piping, hoses, etc. Also don't forget to get protective sleeves for all of your high pressure hoses. They are cheap and a must! Don't go cheap. Buy what's required or better. Most of my parts came from Northern Tool. A good source for hydraulic supplies and motors.

Hand operation of presses means you only have one hand to hold the hot metal. Come up with some type of foot control.

I hope this helps.

Randy THANKS! Man, is that a nice press! I probably should have given a lot more info about this as well as myself, it's hard being a new guy. when it has been years since you were one! I've been on KnifeDogs since it was started 4 years ago and everyone there knows me, I forget that I'm a FNG here! I was just about ready to pull the trigger on this build 6 months ago,then,the back condition I have, that flares up from time to time. Flared up, lets just say, I have been all the way out of it for the last 6 months, and now I'm slowly getting back in the shop and working.

I have been wanting to build a Hydraulic Forging Press for about 2 years. I do have the booklet that Bob Warner put together, it's a step by step kinda tutorial on how to build a press and ways to build it frugally, like by sourcing the cylinder from the scrap yard, the list of possibilities is pretty good, he liked the trash truck cylinders, the big ones that compacts the entire load, but there are other possibilities that can be bought for not much. Really not the way I care to do things, not saying that if I was out there and saw a good looking cylinder at the scrapyard, I would n't jump all over it! I got that book from Bob, 2, maybe 3 years ago. This isn't something I'm doing on a whim, I asked for help/advice, in the hopes that some of the experiences you all have had might help me keep from making mistakes that tend to be expensive. I don't intend on saving any money by scrimping on safe or safer parts, that is why I'm building it the way I am, if I have to wait a little while longer to be able to buy the particular parts I need, then I'll wait and save. The chances are pretty good my 14 year old son will be running it at some point, I'm sure. So this press will have all the best parts I can afford and any items that need special attention, will get it.
Ok, so to answer your questions Randy,

First, get the book. Second, figure out what you're going to use the press for. Third, then figure what tonnage and then what frame will work best for what you want to make or do with the press

1.) The book I'm ordering tomorrow,

2)."Figure out what I'm going to use the press for."

Well that is the easiest question of all, primarily it will be used for making Damascus, the way I work, is not so much about production, ok, it has nothing to do with production, I'll spend 20 to 30 hours polishing out a hamon,to get it just right. Just because it's the way I make my knives. I'm still in what I call the, "Due paying phase", I believe that when getting started, there is a time that knifemakers should focus on nothing but making a better knife than their last, studying fit, finish, ergonomics, design and design with what the knife will be used for, then there is metalurgy, wood working, phenolic working, filework, I plan on making folders soon and that entails a lot of other skills, as well as a lot more skills to know how to make a "better knife"(than my last).
The Damascus I want to make, quite possibly, will be made for each individual knife build. I'm blessed to be in a wonderful position, provided I take care of my money, that I don't have to make money on my knives, YET! What few knives I sell, are sold way under their value, I kept up with the cost last year on a Santoku I made for a customer, after all expenses, I made .32 cents an hour! Which kinda made me happy, I made profit! I feel like that is part of paying my dues. Right now, I am very happy to get enough money from my knives to be able to buy more materials and put up a little cash towards more equipment. So it does make sense to me, to work on being able to make a single billet of, say, Feather Pattern Damascus, while learning how to make that pattern, I can take the time to learn how to control the pattern well enough to predict where the end of the pattern lands! I'm sure that this press will be used to draw larger steel bars or rounds that I have to the size I need it, none of the stuff I have right now is thicker than 2 inches. There is a chance that I may work on making some dies that will help form the blade, the idea I had, was that the dies would be able to press the bevels in and maybe form the tip a little, possibly shape the tang, this is something I do not know if it's possible, so I can guarantee there will be some experimenting with different stuff. I do know how to heat treat dies and the such, that is something I took to right off when I started making knives.

3.) Third, then figure what tonnage and then what frame will work best for what you want to make or do with the press.
I have found a cylinder that alone will generate around 15 tons on pressure, my dies will be approximatley 3" sq, give or take, a little here and there, drawing dies, should be 3"x maybe, 4 or 5", ladder pattern dies, probably 2 x 5 or maybe 6, depending on how I design them, and how I design the die holders, the idea I have right now has the bottom die extending outward about 3 to 4 inches, then again, I may change that if it looks like it's more wasted space than usable space. The "C" frame, as the one in the picture is, will do everything I need it to do, Bruce Bump uses it for everything, from general forging to the Mosaic Damascus he makes, to the Cut-N-Shoot knife guns he makes, as you can see the cylinder he has on it looks like it's about the size of a Brontasaraus's leg! So he has plenty of mashing power! I was thinking that once I've had some time working with it, and possibly be able to generate a little cash flow, I can upgrade the cylinder I startout with to something a bit stronger. Provided I (over)build the I beam frame to be strong enough in the beginning, that shouldn't be a problem later on.
Then you need to figure where your motor, pump and tank are going to go. Attached to the press? Under it? On a separate cart?
Yes, I am now working on figuring our where to put everything, the size of the motor, pump, the tank, I was planning on getting the biggest tank I could find, in Bob's tutorial he builds his own tank, my welding skills aren't good enough to do that. So I'll buy at least a 10 gallon,

Also, I meant to say that Bob's Tutorial has the directions for building a foot pedal, with the arms that attach to the valve, so that you can control the cylinder both down and up, if you'd like to see more on Bob's tutorial, look up his websight, i think it's like BobWarner knives, just google that, he is a great guy, he has alot of tutorials on there, one of them is how to build an etching machine that will also annodize, I think that's right, I know it's a machin that will annodize and also do something else.
Thanks for the help Randy, let me know if my thinking is right and I'm on the right path ,Rex

[Randy]

Rex, you're heading in the right direction. Good job!

[McClellan Made Blades]

Randy, Thanks!
I guess I'm the type that probably over does things, everything I've ever built has been built like a tank, most of my knives would be consider 'hard use' knives, as they are usually forged from stock that starts out at a min. of a 1/4 inch, then I have some steel I like to use that is 3/8 inch thick, no I don't leave it that thick but forging and grinding it down can leave it pretty beefy! Are you familar with Bob Warner or his web site? I haven't talked to him in a long time, I'm not sure if his site is still up. He lives in Texas and the last I heard, he was getting back to making knives, after a serious accident. His site is where a lot of knife makers learned how to build an Elctro-Chemical Etcher from parts bought at Radio Shack, so they can etch their names or logos into the steel, very similar to the Etch-a-matic, same result, except his etcher can be set at 24 volts instead of 12, the difference is a a deeper etch although, it tends to burn up stencils, if your not careful.

I'll be ordering the book tonight when I get home, and then I'm going to try and figure out which way I want to start. I'm thinking about getting the welding done first. Depending on how much that will cost.

Has anyone checked the prices and products that Surplus Center carries? They have an entire line of Hydraulic parts, with great prices, they carry Prince Hydraulics, as well as a few others. Some are under other names but still made by Prince. I've looked at Nothern Tool extensively, they have great stuff, but their prices seem a bit high. In the world of sue or be sued, there is no company that will stick their neck out far enough to advise any of their customers on which products to by, or even which will work with what! I'm going to check with the manufacturer, to see what info they offer, maybe I can find some good info there.

Thanks for the help, I'm planning on or lets say hoping to, do a tutorial on this build, I think I will compete the build before I post the tutorial, so it won't be a WIP. If anyone else has any advice or info, please chime in, I'd want to hear as much info as I can. And Randy, again Thank You for the advice on what to buy first! I hope to buying my cylinder next week...maybe, I haven't decided yet, if I'll wait to get Christmas taken care of first or start buying parts, I'll know soon, Rex

[Randy]

Rex, looks good. Calm down and read the book before you plan or buy anything. Also giving info as to what pumps and motors, etc., is a risky way to go. They can get the book and see what works for thier situation, meaning what tonnage they require and what cylinder they end up with. It all needs to match correctly or something dangerous can happen. It would be neat to see the progress that you go through. Good luck and keep safe.

[Steve H]

Jim Batson did for hydraulic forging what Ron Kinyon did for pneumatic forging~
Also- the $1.50 hydraulic booklet from Surplus center is excellent too. I refer to it more frequently now than Batson's book.

[Randy]

Anyone know any good references for limit switches being added to a hydraulic press? A how-to?

[ciladog]

Anyone know any good references for limit switches being added to a hydraulic press? A how-to?

Randy, I used solenoid valves to operate the press. The limit switch on the right side of the pic slides up and down on the rod. It breaks the connection to the valve and the ram stops.

[HIGHSIDER]

Randy, I used solenoid valves to operate the press. The limit switch on the right side of the pic slides up and down on the rod. It breaks the connection to the valve and the ram stops.

That's a great idea using the drift to hold the tool in place, real neat that

[McClellan Made Blades]

Ciladog,
Dude, That is a sweet press and do ya think those dies are big enough? Could you not find any real big ones?? I'm kidding, ok maybe half kidding and half wondering why are they so big? I have seen a lot of dies and most of them are really big, very similar to yours. Is there a reason for having so much mass in the dies? And does it have anything to do with the amount of pressure involved with the mashing(tonnage being forced) power of the press? Oh and not that it really matters to many folks but I like the yellow, I think having the bright colors like that helps with visibility, I'm getting old(er) and my eyesight aint the best, I can se where that would help a good bit. Thanks for sharing the pic, Rex

[ciladog]

Ciladog,
Dude, That is a sweet press and do ya think those dies are big enough? Could you not find any real big ones?? I'm kidding, ok maybe half kidding and half wondering why are they so big? I have seen a lot of dies and most of them are really big, very similar to yours. Is there a reason for having so much mass in the dies? And does it have anything to do with the amount of pressure involved with the mashing(tonnage being forced) power of the press? Oh and not that it really matters to many folks but I like the yellow, I think having the bright colors like that helps with visibility, I'm getting old(er) and my eyesight aint the best, I can se where that would help a good bit. Thanks for sharing the pic, Rex

I guess everything is relative. I don't think those dies are so big. I have a few different sized dies (some larger and some smaller) for the press. I also have a bunch of forming dies for different shapes. My eyesight isn't what it used to be either.

[McClellan Made Blades]

Ciladog,
So does the color of that area of your press help with being able to see your work better? I'm curious about the steel being red, I was initially thinking that black would be a better color, with the steel red <forging temp red>, the work area painted black should be easier on the eyes, but then I saw your press and that made me think that, maybe having brigther colors in the work area might have some advantages. My forging area is set up where I can cut the lights off to be able to see the color of the steel I'm forging, while I have lights on the other side of my shop, and I can also have lights on the same side as my forging area, just not directly over it. I spent way too much money on wiring my shop, BUT! I ran every plug on it's on 20 amp circuit! And the lights have their own circuit, as well. Before I did all that, I was flipping breakers every time I turned around, so I DO NOT regret spending the money, and I can run one (or 2) of my heaters anywhere in the shop with no fear of breakers popping! Thanks for your input, once I get started on this build, I want to have everything I need to know and everything I need to do ready before I get started so that once I get started I won't have to stop for unplanned things. Thanks for sharing the pics, Rex

[Randy]

Ciladog, that looks clean and simple, just the way I like things. But when you talk of solenoid valves you threw me. How do they tie into the operating valve? Or are they electric and they turn off the motor? I'm lost.

Thanks for your help! -Randy

[ciladog]

Ciladog, that looks clean and simple, just the way I like things. But when you talk of solenoid valves you threw me. How do they tie into the operating valve? Or are they electric and they turn off the motor? I'm lost.

Thanks for your help! -Randy

Randy, A hydraulic directional solenoids control valve operates when electric current is supplied to the solenoid instead of the mechanical movement of a manual valve. So when you apply current to one side of the valve the press closes and when you apply it to the other side of the valve the press opens. This is a typical hydraulic solenoid valve. These valves get mounted to a manifold that supplies the hydraulic fluid to one side of the cylinder or the other.



So my press operates with a foot pedal that rocks in the middle and opens or closes switches that actuates the solenoid valve. I can place that rocker foot pedal anywhere I wish because it is not attached to the press.

The limit switch breaks the connection to the circuit that moves the ram down even though my foot remains on the pedal.

[ciladog]

Ciladog,
So does the color of that area of your press help with being able to see your work better? I'm curious about the steel being red, I was initially thinking that black would be a better color, with the steel red <forging temp red>, the work area painted black should be easier on the eyes, but then I saw your press and that made me think that, maybe having brigther colors in the work area might have some advantages.

I really don't know if the bright color makes any difference in seeing the work. I never thought about that. I painted what I consider danger points the yellow so they would stand out.

[Randy]

Ciladog, Now it all makes sense. The hydraulic directional solenoid control valve is what I've been missing in any discussions about limit switches.

Thanks so much and have a great Thanksgiving!

Randy