Flat or round stock?

[Guiltyspark]

It seems like with flat stock, most of the "work" that makes a forged knife "better" than a stock removal knife isn't there since it roughly already flat shaped and sometimes the point has to be cut out. Am I correct in saying the grain structure in a round stock hammered flat would be better than a already flat piece?

[Maillemaker]

That's not really true. Granted, it'll take more work to pound round stock down into a knife blade, but it really comes down to how you heat the steel. You could have the strongest alloy steel in the world, but if you don't know how hot to work it, the steel could develop stress fractures, break outright, or burn.

If treated carefully, there's no difference in the grain structure between a flat bar and a rod. Worked within temperature range, and heat treated correctly, both will make fine knives, provided the steel itself is of knifemaking quality.

[2Tim215]

The common belief that a forged knife done "properly" is better than a knife done using the stock removal is a fallacy. The post above referring to the correct heat used while forging is 100% correct. Take exactly the same steel and forge it within its critical heat range and anneal, normalize and HT treat it correctly and do a stock removal on the other and you will be surprised by the results - it is the HT process that re - aligns the grain structure and makes for a usable blade not the forging process - that is only for shaping. When I started I also followed the old stories and believed them until I tested for myself. The forging process is for the shaping of a blade so that less steel is used to get the required result - you still stock remove to get a forged blade finished so the point is moot on what method is best. All you need for a excellent knife is good steel with a high carbon content and to HT it correctly within the specific steels guidelines. When you start using modern alloys the HT becomes more complicated but for a forged carbon blade that will do the job as good as any modern alloy steel - stick to the above methods and you won't go wrong.

Whether you hammer square, flat, round or any shape steel into a knife it's only the HT process that re - aligns the grain structure but if you have worked said steel too far above its critical temp there is sometimes very little that can be done to save it.

[ThomasPowers]

Ah, you do know that that flat stock is forged down from quite large billets produced from the melt right?

So you saying that the forging down from say 2 *foot* square to 1.5" by 1/4" doesn't count but the forging from 1" round to 1.5" by 1/4" does? Could you explain it again?

Where grain could possibly make a small difference if forging in things like the blade-tang junction that pretty much is the same forging with either way you started.

Now there are some makers that claim that it makes a huge difference. There are also some makers who claim to work with the higher level vibrations to make their steel "living". Remember that hype is often present when folks try to convince you to buy *their item* rather than someone else's. Look at all the hullabaloo about edge packing! Or layer counts in pattern welded steel that are "impossible" with out splitting the atom...

[Rich Hale]

There is one (or more) high carbon steel that is most commonly sold in round bars rather than in flat stock..It is a common knife steel and I believe the misconception of round being prefered mahy come from alot of makers that is bouight in rounds.
Thomas mentions edge packing. If you simply think about how that is done, the normalizing and hardening steps take that away. Even with that said. there are makers taht will stick to the story about packing making better knives.
And as Tim says above...do your own shop testing and see wot works for you..and that only works if you keep records of everything you do to a steel and how you feel it performs,,particularly record anything not up to your standards as you will not want to repeat that method.
I am still trying to understand the part about cutting the point out...When I forge a blade I forge the point, when I remove stock for a blade I remove steel to shape the point.
We may be able to make some of these points in the upcoming knife chat, late in October,,,Keep and eye on keeping you informed area of main page. ......

[2Tim215]

Rich, cutting the point out I have found only works for specific types of Damascus patterns where you want the pattern to follow the curve. You forge the belly tip down until the spine flattens out again. I don't bother with cutting but forge the spine point at 45 deg then forge the belly into it.

[Rich Hale]

Tim I do that with some types of pattern welded blades.I did not think he was referring to pattern welded steel as he was asking about round stock for forging versus flat stock....Maybe he will 'splain it to us?