general terms/advice

[noah_1]

Hi,

Please excuse my lack of knowledge and lingo and pith.
I recently bought a piece of already tempered spring steel 1/32" by 12" by 7' with the hopes of making a couple of particular Japanese log ripping saws called Maebiki. The steel was not shipped in a coil but still had some weird type of kink to it. If you held the piece vertical so that you are sighting down the edge and rotated it say,counterclockwise, it will suddenly snap to the left causing the whole piece to shudder. If you then rotate it back clockwise it will stay locked in this position of being bent to the left a little past vertical and then snap or pop to the right. So i cant really say which way it is warped. It is pretty much impossible to even hold straight. I have cut the piece in half to 3 1/2 feet and both pieces do the same thing. THe piece was not shipped in a coil.Even if it was in a coil i would expect it then to have a standard bend in one direction. I was advised to pour boiling water on it and bend it in the convex direction. Of course i did not which direction that was but tried anyways. This put a regular warp in it which was then taken out when the process was repeated to the other side. The flip flopping remained. Anyone seen anything like this and any suggestions on removing? Is this likely an occurrence of the hardening or tempering process?

Is there somewhere i could take it to to have straightened? I've seen the service offered of normalizing and also stress relieving.Can someone explaing those terms and are they at all applicable to my problem?

Alternatively, is there some type of business i could have a piece of tool steel 2 inches wide welded to a piece of mild steel 10 inches to create a sheet 12 inches and have it tempered without warping?

Or certainly there must be somewhere i can buy a piece of tempered spring steel that is straight?I have bought another piece before and it was bent too but it was for a frame saw so it did not really matter.

I also thought of laminating the two halves into a plate 1/16 but was told this would not work on another forum. I don't have any metal working knowledge (as if you couldnt tell). I was thinkging using JB Weld. Anyone think that is feasible?

thanks for any help, Noah

[bigfootnampa]

You must realize that these saws are traditionally made by real master craftsmen... of extreme skill levels! I suspect from your description that you may have some cupping in the blade blanks that you have. Pretty tall order for me to fix were I there let alone to teach over the internet! No EASY way Noah!! You need one of those old master craftsmen! I also think your steel is probably too thin by nearly half for this type of saw. My ryoba saw is thicker already than your steel even though it is a much smaller blade. I'd advise making a few smaller blades from the steel that you have and using that project as a practice for making your Maebiki.

[noah_1]

Thanks Bigfoot

I realize the steel is too thin. Someone had mentioned on another forum that their maebiki left a 1/32" kerf. This made sense to me as i've read that Japanes blades are thinner than western ones and i've also read that pit saws are 1/16". I wish i would have researched more before ordering the steel as i've come to find most of those maebiki's are almost 1/10" at the teeth. Is epoxying two 1/32" pieces to make a 1/16" piece a ridiculous idea?

[Rich Hale]

You can likely make this saw,,but not likely that you can make it without any knowledge other than a goal. In addition you will need some tools such as heat treating equipment as well as items to fashion the blade itself. When you say tempered steel that is a state the steel is put into as part of a wider heat treat process. And you will need the whole procedure done for a finished blade. There is more information on this forum about heat treating steel.
If you wish to accept this challenge it will take alot of time and effort and some money on your part. How much personal gain that will give is only a guess, but at times it is very rewarding to take a new direction and see where it all leads.

[Frank Turley]

I spent six days in the early 1990's with the premier saw maker of Japan, Yataiki, recently deceased. He came to Fairfield, Iowa for a 30 day saw repair and sharpening workshop. He could make 113 saw patterns, including the big ones. His small veneer saws left no sign of the wood having been sawn! He began as a bladesmith, but wanted to make something useful, so he turned to saws. We called him "sensei." He was very learned. He used tamahagane steel, the same steel that the bladesmiths use. It comes from the old fashioned tatara furnace which is fired up once a year, and the resulting steel is delivered to toolsmiths and sword makers. At the workshop, I did not see him make a saw nor did I see any heat treatment. I did see him setting teeth free hand with a sharp cross peened hammer over the edge of the anvil. I saw him tensioning a small hand saw by repeatedly hitting the flat blade at ambient temperature with a small, tensioning hammer. After every few blows, he would hold it up to the light and bend it. He would take a look and start hammering again. Apparently this would give the saw the correct thickness and correct spring.

This whole idea of saw making including tempering, tooth shape, setting teeth, filing teeth, and tensioning is so involved, it is arcane. Yataiki said that he couldn't get any long term apprentices, because when they saw all the work that it took, they would rather "get a job at an auto body shop." So he said.

www.shibui.com of Brooklyn, NY, sometimes carries Japanese saws of various sizes. You might check and if you could purchase one, you would have all the dimensions.

[Frosty]

The reason Japanese saws are so much thinner than American or western European saws is they cut on the draw, ours cut on the thrust. As to making one, I don't think I'll live long enough to learn and I'm only 60. It's the new 40 you know. <grin>

Frosty The Lucky.

[petere76]

Frosty,

Right on the Japanese saws, very thin and they cut on the draw. I am suitably impressed ever time I see a Japanes timber frame building. The joinery is world class. The tooling the masters use last a life time. The chisel sets are amazing.

I'm not 60 but I don't feel like I'm 40 anymore and somewaht moreso after a full day of heavy forging. I have not battled with any trees in the yard lately but I certainly keep you in mind when using the chain saw. Glad all is going well.

Peter

[rockstar.esq]

Saw making is something that I'd love to learn. Along with many other things. Time, opportunity, persistence, and money are the obstacles we all must overcome.

Good luck on your quest.