Is the Nazel PH French?

[Randy]

I have a Nazel 1B, 2 piece self contained power hammer, 1905. All of the old smiths always called them a Nay-zl. (Sorry don't know how to show long and short with a keyboard.) You know, like you have a nazel cold in your nose. Now I hear people pronouncing it Nay-Zel. Heavy on the "zel". These were made in Philladelphia, USA. All the old and newer smiths in Yellins' always called them Naysl's, so why the pronouncing like it's a french hammer now? Do you know what I'm asking? I understand why the newbies call swedge blocks swage blocks, but where did this come from?

[firefarm39]

Whatever you call them, I want one! :P

[MattBower]

I always assumed it was NAY-zl, then I heard someone call it "nay-ZEL" and assumed I was just a dummy. I'm happy to learn that my instinct wasn't necessarily wrong. :)

I could argue with you about swage block/swedge block, though, Randy.

[monstermetal]

Well really it is a french hammer... It was patterned after the Beche, thats what the B stands for.... So I am all for sticking with the french NayZel

[nonjic]

Isnt the Beche German though!

[Dan P.]

If it were a French pronunciation, it wouldn't be Nay- anything, it would be Na-, with a short a.

[Randy]

Matt and others, all of the smiths up until about 25 years ago or so called them swedge blocks. All of the old wagon smiths I knew and all of the workers at Yellins', including Harvey called them swedges. You never heard anyone call them swage blocks or swages until after that when so many self trained smith came on the scene. That's one way we tell a newbie. So why change what they are called because someone couldn't spell? B)

[forgemaster]

Swedge blocksswage blocks we always have this arguement with guys that went to Sydney TAFE as opposed to Newcastle Tafe, they also call a Beche a beashee, I always thought that it was because the main employer of blacksmiths here in Newcastle was BHP whose 1st manager was a man by the name of Delprat, who was originally french of course. We always called them swedges and still do but I was a newcastle apprentice.

Phil

[Tommy Traylor]

This pronunciation thing will surely lead to severe psychological damage. Best to get rid of the hammer immediately. Want my phone number?

[monstermetal]

I stand corrected, I always thought Beche was a French manufacture... Not sure where I got that impression :wacko:

[Patrick Nowak]

The written word "swage" can be found in old period blacksmithing texts such as "Forge Craft" published in 1913. I'm sure it is in other period references as well. In our 1970 version of Webster's collegiate dictionary "Swage" is included and there is actually a sketch of top and bottom swages in use forming a tennon. I think the pronunciation differences are most likely regional more than anything else. There are lots of examples of pronuciation variation by region through out the US.

Patrick

[Randy]

How would Webster know the correct spelling or how to say swedge. Don't think he hung out with many smiths to find out. How many of the old smiths, before our time, could even read? They said it as they heard it. Even at the early ABANA conferences '70's - '90's, with smiths from all over the country and world, it was "swedge". It's kind of like first reading a Harry Potter book, before the movies were out. We had it one way in our head and then the Brits showed us how it was supposed to be said and now that's the only way we hear it. We digress... still haven't heard why people are now saying Na-Zel.

[MattBower]

How does Webster know how any word is pronounced?

The idea that smiths prior to our generation were a bunch of knuckle-dragging illiterates from the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder -- and you're not the first person I've known who seemed to think that -- has always struck me as, well, nonsense. Blacksmithing was a very mainstream trade for many centuries. You don't think Webster spent any time around blacksmiths? Why not? There was a smithy on practically every corner. A directory of New York City from 1839-40 lists 319 blacksmith shops for a population of a bit over 300,000. That means one blacksmith shop (not just one blacksmith -- many shops back then were far from one-man affairs) for every 1000 people. That's a lot! That'd translate to 20 blacksmith shops in the small town I grew up in. It's probably fair to say that during the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries, a substantial majority of Americans knew at least one blacksmith (probably several), and interacted with blacksmiths on a commercial basis at least occasionally. There's a reason that Smith is the most common surname in the U.S. and the U.K.

There's also no reason to think smiths were less literate than their peers (other tradesmen) for most of that time. The literacy rate in the U.S. when the Constitution was signed was around 60%, and it climbed steeply in the 19th century. It is likely that at least a bare majority of smiths -- a probably substantially more than a bare majority -- were literate even in the 1790s. During the colonial period, Ben Franklin wrote that libraries had, "improved the general conversation of Americans, made the common tradesmen and farmers as intelligent as most gentlemen from other countries, and perhaps have contributed in some degree to the stand so generally made throughout the colonies in defense of their privileges." Who do you think wrote all the articles in Practical Blacksmithing, which was first published in 1888? Blacksmiths! And who were they written for? Blacksmiths!

Swedge and swage both appear multiple times in Pratical Blacksmithing, by the way, which lends credence to the suggestion that there's regional variation. You can find both spellings in other 19th century books as well, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary from 1896 lists swayje as the pronunciation.

[Randy]

Now, now, you're putting words in my mouth, a lot of them, and that's unsanitary. If anyone knows how talented smiths were and are... I've studied the history and lore of smiths and worked around them, too, but that doesn't mean Webster asked a smith about tool terminology. I had a nun ask me where ironwork would be used. Just because it's around you that doesn't mean you see it.

[Stormcrow]

The swage/swedge comment reminds me of a letter/article in Practical Blacksmithing in which the writer complained about the usage of pein vs. pane for the back end of a hand hammer. Been a long time since I read it, but seems like he was a strong advocate of calling it a pane and deplored the lowering of standards to accept the use of the term pein. I don't think I've seen the term pane used anywhere else. :D

Names is names. They're malleable. :D

[Bentiron1946]

Swage, swedge, wash or warsh, well there is a bit of regional and national pronunciation to many words. A few years ago we had a neighbor from England and his wife was from Australia now that made for some serious trouble for some of us Americans and all the different ways in which some seemingly common words were pronounced. It was almost better to just write each other letters than to try to talk to each other. Sometimes you would think we were speaking a different language.

[peacock]

Does it really make any difference? If we spent as much effort useing them and teaching others to use them as has been spent on this we would be better off.

[MattBower]

Now, now, you're putting words in my mouth, a lot of them, and that's unsanitary. If anyone knows how talented smiths were and are... I've studied the history and lore of smiths and worked around them, too, but that doesn't mean Webster asked a smith about tool terminology. I had a nun ask me where ironwork would be used. Just because it's around you that doesn't mean you see it.

It's not an issue of talent. I don't think you believe old-time smiths were untalented. I think you believe they were uneducated -- specifically, that they were unable to read and write. I base that conclusion on your own words: "How many of the old smiths, before our time, could even read?" My answer to that is that most of them probably could, even in the colonial period. And by the mid- to late 19th century it was probably the vast majority. (My answer refers to the English speaking world, of course.)

As to your question, it is eminently reasonable to think that Webster and other early dictionary writers spoke to smiths to determine the pronunciation of the word. You seem to assume that they just made it up in a vacuum, at a time when it would've been terribly easy to walk down the street and survey a half-dozen blacksmiths. I see no good reason to believe that.

The swage/swedge comment reminds me of a letter/article in Practical Blacksmithing in which the writer complained about the usage of pein vs. pane for the back end of a hand hammer. Been a long time since I read it, but seems like he was a strong advocate of calling it a pane and deplored the lowering of standards to accept the use of the term pein. I don't think I've seen the term pane used anywhere else. :D Names is names. They're malleable. :D

I agree! I don't claim that swedge is wrong. I just don't accept the assertion that swage is wrong! I write pein. Some folks write peen. I don't try to correct them; as far as I'm concerned both variants are legitimate. At least we all pronounce it the same! (We do, don't we?) Pane, though -- that's a new one to me!

[MattBower]

Does it really make any difference? If we spent as much effort useing them and teaching others to use them as has been spent on this we would be better off.

No. If you'll give me a Nazel, I'll call it anything you want. I'll call it a pink petunia if that's what floats your boat. ;)

[monstermetal]

Well my two hammers are Nay-Zels and they will stay that way... They sit next to my swage blocks and cross peen hammers. You can call them anything you want and your still welcome in my shop..

[Dan P.]

"Swage" and "swedge" are almost identical in pronunciation. It's the difference between a long "e" and a short one.

[Randy]

Whatever you call them, I love mine!

[MOONY]

as i know the beche is a french hammer design, the nazel was made under licence in usa , and the Chinese hammer anyang and other makers are copys of the beche an nazel also there are other europe made hammers stanko and others that also are take offs the beche , but only the Massey is in its self its own hammer LONG LIVE THE MASSEY
YOU LIKE THAT JOHN LOLOL

[John Larson]

Nazel and Hazel ought to be pronounced the same, probably, but like so many words it depends upon the social group and the time and place.

[Stormcrow]

Reminds me of my two years teaching English in a public school. Once in a great while in class something like this would occur:

"Mr. Helm, what do you call it when ___________?"

"Well, I call it a 'woogie-woogie-woogie-eek-eek-eek', but people look at me weird when I do."

"MR. HELM!"

:D There are some aspects of those days I miss, but I sure enjoy running a hammer instead. :)