Stormcrow Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 These will go in the mail on Monday. They were made for three current members of the USMC. They're forged from 3/4" round 5160, filed bevels, triple normailzed to refine the grain, triple quenched in veggie oil to harden, and triple tempered for toughness. The handle wraps are paracord impregnated with Minwax Wood Hardener with desert tan for the underlay, black wth its core stripped out for the overlay, and black with the core intact for the two-strand Turk's head knots. The sheaths are desert tan Kydex with two MOLLE locks each. Edges are shaving sharp, including the top edge of the bottom knife. In fact, it drew blood already because someone assumed it was a false edge and ran their finger along it before I could stop them. :) They've been being worked on since I started playing around with this paracord wrap and have been re-wrapped three times. I'm happy with them now, though I will continue to tweak my method as I do more of these wraps. One of the Marines who will be recieving a knife got to handle them one handle wrap back, several months ago. I asked him if he had any comments, and this was what he typed: "a wonderful blend of both a utility and tactical blade mixture." "perfect for cutting a MRE box open or a cutting a bad dude if needed :) " Looks like these blades will probably accompany them to some exotic locales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caotropheus Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Stormcrow In general, I like very much your cutlery: wrought look, utility in mind. 1 - How durable are the type of handles you make with paracord when compared with wood or home made micarta for example? 2 - What are the dimensions of these blades, including thickness? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I see people talking about triple quenching from time to time. I have to ask, why? Its my understanding that once a piece is as critical temprature that any previous hardening is pretty much out the window. I understand the value of triple normalizing and I understand the need for more than one tempering cycle. But multiple quenching eludes me. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Caotrephus - These wraps are fairly new to me, so it's a bit hard to say what the long-term performance will prove to be, but one of them has gone through SERE training, so it seems to be plenty tough. I'll get feedback on these knives as well, hopefully. K.Bryan Morgan - This is a thread on another forum discussing what's going on. http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/49811/Mint-chocolate-primal-tactical-fighter I need to put this data in a thread on my blog and refer to it when the question arises. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I am not a fan of the triple quench method of heat treat. I have only made one blade from 52100 and did triple that. I stick with two blade steels for almost all of my carbon blades. 1095 and 1084. they do real well with simple steps. I watch really close the temp of the steel before quench and I use a thermometer in the oil. I use an oven for temper and now and then double check the temp in it with a thermometer. There aer so many new folks on this forum trying to make a first blade that I hope they do not get sidetracked and start trying triple steps in heat treat. Seems like they can get lost and perhaps have trouble when the simple thing works well. Heat treat.takes a certain amount of time at a certain temperature. If that is not done, more time at incorrect values will not make all well. The link provided above confirms my thoughts. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Ok, so I guess I still don't see the need for it. In the thread it was stated that you can bring the 5160 to 1500 degrees F and quench once and still get the same results as a triple quench at a slightly lower temprature. I can see your point about getting the carbides into solution so they can distribute throughout the steel. But, if you can do it with one heat treat step, why do it in smaller steps with three? I'm seriously trying to learn here. As Rich states it can be confusing. I've only heat treated things like chisels, punches and other things like that. I have seen people, in person, quench 5160 using the exact same method you discribed in your article. Looking at color, using a magnate then quenching in oil. They used Parks 50 quench oil. And got a plenty hard blade from the process. I should also note this is a very good maker who has been doing this for a very long time and was recently written up in 4-5 national knife publications for a survival knife he had shown at the national show in Atlanta. My first blade, which I will be finishing soon, is made from 52100. Not an ideal steel to begin with I've been told. However, its what I had on hand. I'm almost t the point where I will be hardening the blade. I still have some things to do first. I just want to get it right the first time. Thank you for your answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The object of triple quenching is to shrink the grain size drastically. Since the smaller grain size enhances the toughness of the steel, it is desirable in knifemaking to have a small grain size in the blade. The process is explained on pages 68 & 69 "Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel" by John D. Verhoeven Emeritus Professor Iowa State University. Somewhere on this site there is a link to the online version of that document. He also states that to shrink the grain size the metal is heated into the austenite region holding the maximum temperature as low as possible and the time as short as possible and then rapidly cooling back to room temperature as fast as possible without forming bainite, assuming it is not desired. Since smaller initial grain size promotes smaller final grain size, repeating this cycles several times will enhance fine grain size. Some people confuse this process with normalizing but there is a significant difference between this process and normalizing and that is the cooling time. In normalizing the metal is heated, soaked at temperature for a given time and then allowed to cool in still air. This process calls for "cooling as fast as possible without forming bainite assuming it is not desired." The temperature range for transformation to bainite (250-550°C) (482F - 1022F) is between those for pearlite and martensite. When formed during continuous cooling, the cooling rate to form bainite is more rapid than that required to form pearlite, but less rapid than is required to form martensite (in steels of the same composition). Most alloying elements will lower the temperature required for the maximum rate of formation of bainite, though carbon is the most effective in doing so. Cooling as fast as possible leaves some room for individual interpretation since Dr. Verhoeven did not explain this in his thesis. In my mind to achieve this one would have to quench the steel. The grain structure that results from normalizing is pearlite. Since bainite forms in a temperature range between peralite and martensite, to cool rapidly without forming bainite would produce martensite, the same structure that one gets from quenching. Now to the question of do you or don't you triple quench? That is up to the individual, there is the advantage of shirnking the grain size. There are distinct disadvantages to triple quenching, one is the possibility of cracking the blade. Also, I am told that one can shrink the grain so much that the steel won't harden although I haven't experienced that nor have I cracked a blade in the quenching process and I triple quench all my blades. Having said that I probably angered the metal gods and from now on all my blades will have the tensil strength of a tootsy roll with multiple cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Thank you Woody that really answers my questions quite well. I very much appreciate your comments and your humor. It puts into perspective that even if you do everything right you can still get poor results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Bryan, I don't get the tripple quench either. If you follow proper techniques grain growth shouldn't be a problem. I would like to see or hear from some one who has tested both techniqes on 5160 and get their opinion on if it gave any advantage. Stormcrow, I love those blades. I would like to see them with some stag handles to stand in contrast to the dark blades. I'm not biased, I love organic materials. That would take away from the military look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 jmcustomknives: The grain shrinkage is states in the document by Dr. Verhoeven and documented with a table that shows grain size before and after a triple quench. 3 steels were listed 1045, 1086 and 5150. Ultrafine grain size was obtained in all 3 steels. I have the complete doucment in pfd format. Email me if you want a copy and I can send it to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 What Woody said. :) I think that a single quench is a fine way of doing it and have no arguments against it. The reason I do it is to get carbides into solution, though it is a pleasant surprise to hear that it also helps refine grain. And another main reason I do it is as a precaution against overheating when I'm judging temperature by eyeball and with a magnet. My guess is that a properly done single quench does pretty much what I try to do with the multi-quench. So why do the multi-quench? Call it me being cautious. :) Like Eric on PaleoPlanet said, it's probably overkill but it works; he had no performance complaints from the blade I sent him that had that heat treatment. As for stressing the blade, I quench in canola oil and haven't had a blade crack from the quench. Warps are usually on long blades (machete length). And a file will skate off the blade after each of the quenches. I don't go through that rigamarole on 1084, the only other blade steel I've used so far. It's just a single quench preceeded by a triple normalization after forging and followed by a triple tempering cycle. Rich - I'd say this *is* a simple heat treatment, it's just you do it a couple more times. But I'm not arguing for it, just saying I do it on 5160 and why. :) JMCcustomknives - I do these with hemp cord and shellac as well; that's organic. :) I do handles that aren't cord-wrapped, but it seems like it's been a good while since I've done many. I'm actually starting to play with Micarta now. K. Bryan Morgan - There's more'n one way to skin a cat or heat treat a knife. I just watched Charlie Och's video on making a Bowie from 52100 and he brought the blade to temp by eye, quenched for a couple of seconds or so in water, and brought it out of the quench with the back of the blade still glowing a dull red a bit. There was a visible differential hardening zone, backed up by his Rockwell tester. I would have never considered a water quench. He commented that he used to do it on 5160 as well, in order to get more points of Rockwell hardness. So whatever method gets the results you want and that you're comfortable with doing. Remember, the bishwarkamas in Nepal who make khkuris edge quench at a low heat by pouring water from a tea pot along the edge of the blade. As long as it works. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Stormcrow, I do see your point and its a good one. Results are what matters. I know I'm not ready for advanced techiques when it comes to the heat treatment of steels. I only have very basic equipment so doing things the simple way will probibly be my best option. By eye with a magnate and an oven. I've learned alot. Now I just need to get the dang thing finished. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 With simple steel and a little practice, you can get amazing results by eye and with a magnet. Looking forward to the outcome of yours. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Nguyen Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Really liking the 3rd one. Pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Finally got the paper with the dimensions brought to my apartment. The double edged knife is 11 1/4" overall with a 5 7/8" long blade. The bigger of the other two is 11 5/8" overall with a 6 1/4" blade length, while the smaller is 11" overall with a 5 1/2" long blade. All of them are approximately 1/4" thick at the blade/tang transition and taper distally to the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.