zord Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Hello all, First I'm new to blacksmithing and I’m currently building my workshop ( pics will follow ). I’m familiar with metalwork but not blacksmithing. As a starter blacksmith I understand I have to make my tools and I was wondering if anyone can give me a simple way to start making punchers and chisels. Thanx Zord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel.85 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Well forging out the shapes that you need doesn't require to much, you can grind them to shape a bit as well. Whats important is getting the proper heat treat on them which depends on what you will be using to make them. Having a punch or chisel snap under a big hammer blow would be no fun at the least. Tool steal rods can be purchased online or wherever, hammer out what you need, normalize, grind, heat, quench, temper, use. Also its good to have a punch lubricant if your going through anything fairly thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I use coil spring from a car, haven't gotten a big spring from a truck but that is OK. I usually work on small stuff, so small tools work fine. http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/12321-tools-from-spring/ Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 A video by Mark Aspery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV06XIMy88o&feature=plcp&context=C44b39f6VDvjVQa1PpcFOo_aFHC1nmlUUDBH3hfymRfmQyWSozTXc%3D Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Almost missed it, Welcome aboard! IFI is represented world wide, so putting a location in your profile will help. There may also be someone near by who can help. In many areas there are blacksmithing groups, who can help you learn much much faster than on your own by being able to show and demonstrate. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron quake Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Here is my take on the subject of making tools. If you are going to the trouble to make a tool you must need it and it should be of good quality. To start with, making tools from mild steel or a steel that you’re unsure of the alloy, is a potential waste of time. A 6’ length of 4140 1” square bar costs me about $70.00, that’s about 60 cents for 6” long piece. If you are going to grind it, drill it, file it, mill or forge it to some shape, you should be able to heat treat it after words to get something worth having. The cost of the steel is little compared to your time. McMaster sells slow or fast quench oil for $18.00 a gallon and it will last a long time. They sell tool steel as well (they are expensive) buy from your local steel company if you can. I like 4140 and S7 a lot. You can heat treat S7 to 1800f and let it air cool to quench, and if it’s not a delicate part use it as quenched, without annealing or stress reliving. All I’m saying is do it right the first time. I heat treat all my tools in a small gas forge, quench in air or quenching oil and anneal in the kitchen oven for 2 hour soak. In my past life we never did any heat treat in house, we always sent it out. I’m rather enjoying doing the whole process myself now, along with everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zord Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 Thanks Phil and iron quake for the response, I have watched a lot of videos online and I understand all about the types of steel. Let’s say I have a coil spring or 6’ length of 4140 1” square bar and I forge it to the shape I want, what is the order of the process until I can use it as a tool? BTW I’m from Israel and obviously we have Hofi here and a few other but it seems not a lot of blacksmiths in Israel are willing to open up and share (tried a few). Most of the stuff I do in life I learned myself and I like it so I'll be happy to know the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If you have the tool forged and ready for heat treat, your first step is to Google the specifications for the material 4140 steel specifications Google will return a number of pages look for one that is easy to read with the needed information, for example:http://www.metalsuppliersonline.com/Research/Property/metals/25.asp you may need to look at several as many information pages are poorly organized or incomplete. This one says prior to hardening, normalize from 1675F, then harden by quenching in oil from 1550F, temper between 400F and 1200F (Google can convert the temperature if you need) Non-magnetic is about 1450F, and can help determine your temperature for normalizing and hardening. Have you done heat treat processing before? There are stickies pinned in the heat treat sub forum that can help.http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/68-heat-treating-general-discussion/ Since these are smaller struck tools you only need to harden the end 1/2 inch (13mm) (I usually harden about 1 inch (25mm) because that is what I do. I find it a little easier) I would "run the colors" to dark straw or purple, knowing that if a file does not bite I can draw it softer by running the colors again, or oven tempering. I use a quart (liter) of canola oil, since I am working in my back yard, it is convenient. If it is a hot work tool the benefit of heat treat (unless it is a hot-work steel) is limited, and many people go without doing a heat treat. 4140 (or coil spring which is typically 5160) is not a hot-work steel, so it is going to start becoming soft at about 700F. The improvement from hardening will only be when the tool is cold. If you harden and temper or just use "as forged" keep hot-work tools cool. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Ummm your math is off Iron Quake... those 6" punch blanks are actually costing you $5.83 each! That makes a difference! So it appears that our OP (Zord) is really wanting to know about heat treatments for his smithing tools. Not a simple subject as this is affected by the tool type, the type of steel, intended use and individual preference. Perhaps why he's had little luck getting local help... the subject is too complex for the simple answer that he seeks. As above, iron quake air quenches his S7 tools. Most guys using 4140 will oil quench it, usually just the working end, leaving the struck end normalized. A few will water quench 4140 tools and some do not heat treat their punches at all. When using them you'll get plenty of opportunity to try different strategies because hot work tools need frequent reshaping and re-heat-treating. Coal dust to lubricate your punches is a big help. Ask often enough and you'll get enough varied answers to see how the subject requires some personal experience to understand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron quake Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Bigfoot I stand corrected $6.00 not .60. serves me right typing things after midnight when I should be in bed. You might take a look at this heat treat link. I think its pretty much on the money and easy to follow.http://tidewaterblacksmiths.net/2.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Good link Iron Quake. I use coil spring because I was able to obtain some for "free" when I replaced the struts and springs on my car. I have also asked at car repair places and a couple are willing to give me junk parts if they have them... (They haven't when I have been there because other people collect the junk parts too) Many repair shops replace the entire strut assembly with the spring for a number of reasons. The price is right and the material works very well. If I was making production tools for sale, there is no way I would use "junk" metals. Too great a chance of having an unknown unusual chemistry, or a piece that is significantly damaged from its previous use causing early failure. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron quake Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Phil how do you process the spring? Do you heat it up and unroll it or cut sections out and then heat and straighten them out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I cut first with an abrasive cutoff wheel. I do take a moment to measure and mark. I learned that failing to mark gives very uneven results. The last coil I cut provided just under 16 inches per full coil, so I cut full coils then halved them (and did a bad job marking out, er, I just guessed badly, really.) This was the first time I cut up an entire spring at once, as I wasn't keeping most of it and wanted it to fit in a small flat rate box. I usually just cut a couple pieces off and put up the rest of the spring. Steel can vary from spring to spring even pulled from the same vehicle, so don't mix the springs up until you test to make sure it hardens like you expect it to. Once you have a 1/2 coil, or a full coil you can heat up a portion, then hook the horn and pull or stick the end in the hardy or pritchel and lever it nearly straight. A few light hammer blows and it is in decent order for starting work. I have had good success with straightening whole and half coils. I have not larger cut off portions yet, but expect even double coils to be manageable, and 3 or 4 feet in length. I have tried pulling a spring to straight by heating a portion of it and pulling it out, but the spring gets unwieldy very quickly. I then tried hot-cutting with clumsy results (a helper would have made it easy). I was learning my solid fuel brake drum forge at that time and have since rebuilt the firepot deeper. (Cavalier brake drums are rather shallow for a firepot, 2 stacked are serviceable, I just welded that configuration together today because I have my Dad's Hobart 135 welder for a few weeks.) With a good forge and an extra set of hands hot cutting is probably much faster and easier. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zord Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Great, I'll give it a try. I found a junk yard near by and they have all kinds of car parts for about 1$ a kilo. I'll start with a spring coils at first. BTW I have finish the structure of my workshop today and I'll be building the forge and a working table during the week. Sadly I couldn't find a leg vice anywhere for sale. Zord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Do remember that using recycled scrap poses the mystery metal problem. You need to test your material to make sure it hardens properly. Since these are your first few tools, and the time to make a chisel is low, even for your first one, I recommend just making one, heat treat it as you decide to. Coil spring is typically 5160, but may not be. If the first piece hardens properly, then make the rest. If you were making a more involved item like a knife that can take hours of finishing before hardening I would instead recommend making a very simple item that provides similar profiles to the finished item, and test hardening it to make sure the material performs properly before investing lots of labor into the material. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Every car came with a lug wrench, many junkers still have them. Good tool steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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