Farmweld Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Hi all, attached is a picture (hopefully) of the toy I bought myself six or so months ago. I've finally got it mounted on the foundation on Christmas eve and managed to hotwire some three phase to it this afternoon and got it running. xxxx it was good to hear after just watching online videos for so long. Couple of problems though, after sitting for so long it doesn't seem to want to lift the hammer when hold up is selected. This machine needs the stuffing box packing replaced anyway as it never used to pick the piston up in neutral and leaked like blazes in hold up, but I could only get it to pick the piston up once. Not sure if this is a packing/seal or piston ring problem or whether there may have been some gunge accumulation/disturbance during moving/storage which has clagged up something in the valve train, any suggestions? Second problem is the dies, or the wedges that hold the dies, are that tightly wedged in that I can't move them at all to adjust the dies. Might not be a problem as I have to pull it off the anvil to re-wedge the anvil which moved after the first couple of heavy blows and if I pack it into the right position I can adjust the hammer to sit over it square, but I was thinking I might want to try some different die combinations in the future. Any suggestions gratefully accepted Andrew PS: tried several times to attach picture but it doesn't want to know about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Is this high pressure hold up or low pressure? In low pressure hold up the treadle has to be blocked part way down with the rod that rotates and holds the treadle down. If that is not the problem, pulling the valve is not that big a job. Take the cover off the top, take the cover off behind the anvil, Pull one of the pins on the linkage behind that cover and the the valve will pull out the top. It shouldn't matter but I still would mark the valve so you can put it back the same way. Getting the key out if it is stuck can be tricky, but the fact the die moved is a good sign. Some oil could help, if possible make sure you are not mushrooming the key. when you put it back in oil or grease it before driving it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Not sure with this one, Yeh check the valves, may have one stuck or have a broken spring. If you pull the shuttle apart make sure that you put all the pieces back in the right way around, in the same order with any bits of packing in the same places. Once you get ii mixed up you can spend days, months trying to get it right again. Was the ram packed up inside the cylinder while it was stored, is it still shiny and oiled. We are using kevlar packing in our hammers now, Our 5 was last packed in 09 and it still is no air leakage after a lot of use. One other thing is we always wedge our anvils down around the base as well as around the stem where it goes through the hammer base. After driving in the wedges fab an angle iron octagon ring that sits on top of the wedges to stop them from lifting up. Our 5 has been in for about 12 years now and has not moved from scale under it and does not bounce from the hammers blows. I know that Moonie did'nt do this last time he set up his 7 and he is still having problems with the anvil lifting up on one side and getting stuff in under it. He is just grinding his dies to level them at the moment but he is looking at having to lift the hammer off to fix it properly in the future. I'm sure John N will chime in with a post on this. If he doesnt know masseys no-one does. Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmweld Posted December 26, 2011 Author Share Posted December 26, 2011 Thanks for the replies so far. JNewman - neither low nor high pressure hold up is working. Before it was decommissioned the low pressure hold up didn't work because of the stuffing box packing (or lack thereof) but now the high pressure hold up is not working either. The rotating block on the treadle was quite handy for stopping the hammer tupping on the anvil! I'll look at getting the stuffing box packing done first and then move on to more "complicated" fixes. forgemaster - The hammer was stored under cover with the ram extended as it was only going to be for a short while but (as always) the time got extended, and extended. The amount of oil that was coating the ram shaft was quite sufficient to stop any rust, and I was checking it every week for the same. I wondered if there might be some sort of ring compression problem on the piston rings with them sitting at the very bottom of the stroke for so long but that doesn't seem to be the problem. Interesting observation - with the ram fully extended you can turn the flywheel over with no compression at all, it just wheezes away to itself . move the ram up a bit and all of a sudden the compression kicks in and you haven't got a hope of turning it over. No wonder it needs a 15HP motor to get it going! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I forget to say if you need info on the Kevlar packing and where to get it in Aus send me a PM or post in here, I should be able to souce the info while I'm here on holls. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 If you allow the ram to sit in the bottom of the cylinder it has trouble lifting up. I know that when ever we change out dies or have them removed to machine the faces and my guys let the ram sit right down, the hammer hesitates a bit on single blow to lift the ram, the all of a sudden it will fly up. I think that it allows the ram to sit level or below the bottom inlet port, so stopping air from readily getting under the piston head. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmweld Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 I've been busy, first I had to get the forklift going again (only bought it three weeks ago, partially because I didn't want to have to hire one to put the hammer in, Hyster 3.5T with a Continental flathead six in it, learning curve there as well) which turned out to be the points having too big a gap, so that runs properly now. Then I lifted the hammer off and re-wedged the anvil so that shouldn't rock any more. Then it was out with the gantry and block and tackle to drop the ram guide off, but it ended up being easier to pull the whole piston, ram and guide in one piece and then split them on the workshop floor. Checked the ram/guide clearances before I split everything and they seem to be good so that is a plus, then dropped the guide off and "what stuffing box seal"?, I think I pulled about one 6" section out that was complete and a couple of other small bits and that was it. No wonder it didn't lift on the low pressure hold up. Forgemaster, or for that matter anyone else, could you please post details of any suitable packing I can try to buy from suppliers here in Adelaide? And you are also right about the piston clearing the bottom ports when fully down as looking up the cylinder from underneath and eyeball measurement it looks like that is the case, possibly some sort of safety measure to stop the piston punching out the guide if there was too much clearance. If you're over this way give me a call and drop in for a look, info is on the website in my profile. Thanks Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 It is 3 or 4 ply kevlar packing, I don't know the size off hand as my wife did'nt enter the size into MYOB for me just the fact it is 3 or 4 ply. I have the size written down at work I'll be back there on the 9th. Most packing and gasket suppliers should be able to source it for you. Maybe try Walkers packings there should be a branch in SA, you can also use leather but it does not last as long, do not use polyeuythane as it will wear the rod. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Good advice above. The packing is 5/8 x 3/16" section. I get the kevlar packing made up special now, I had a lot of problems with off the shelf kevalr packing, some works, some just turns to snot. The stuff thats kevlar with rubber in goes snotty after a couple of shifts and blows out. I only sell the packing in 15 mtr coils, so try and tap Phil up for some! You may need to shim the slide blocks out on the stuffing box to take up some of the clearance. a 2 cwt should only have a couple of thou per flat. You will struggle to get it that good unless you machine or grind off the flats on the end of the ram where it does not wear. Pull the valve out. Check it for sticking or broken discs. The valve portions should be able to turn on the spindle but have no end float. Dont lock the valve porions up solid or you will get problems when the hammer is hot. The top of the valve tube will be stamped ( +1/8 , -1/16" or whatever) this is the position that the top of the valve should be in when the handlever is fully depressed (full work position) - its the first and most basic check on the valving. It gets complicated from there on in. You need the page from the manual which states all the spacings between the portions (its a common to all hammer sizes chart so one of the Massey owners who have posted in this thread might help you out with the info) * If you can get the hammer working right on the handlever its a simple matter to set the footlever, floating quadrant and footlever throw over stop to suit. Its unlikey to be a piston ring problem - if you check the skirt of the compressor piston you will find a couple of tapped holes, that may or may not be plugged. these bypass excess air on a new hammer. As the hammer wears a bit you can plug these to send more air to the front piston. If you over plug them the hammer will get flighty. If you are strugging for a happy medium you can put in a plug (I think they are 1/4" gas on a 2cwt) with an 1/8" hole drilled through it. These plugs make a suprising difference to the hammer. Hope this helps a bit - if you have any specific questions Ill have a shot at answering them. * - I sell copies of the manual, Dont mind giving a bit of my own time away to help, but when im at work ive gotta charge the rate to cover the overheads :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmweld Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Thanks John N and forgemaster, I decided to try a couple of strips of 25mm cotton webbing folded in half so that it looked similar to the original asbestos tape, assembled the whole thing, and it worked! Probably won't last that long but it got me going and able to do some forging, and I got to play pulling my toys to bits and putting them back together again. Somewhere in the middle of doing the above I was running the hammer without the ram in it to see if the oil pump was working properly. There was a bit of a click noise and the air noise in the ram chamber changed. After assembly the high pressure hold up worked fine and has continued to do so, so I think one of the valves must have been a bit sticky and isn't any more. As I said in a post above I checked the shim blocks in the stuffing box against the figures in the book (4 thou) and couldn't get a 2 thou feeler to slide in either side so I figure they must be pretty close to factory spec. This hammer really hasn't done much work at all and the bottom ram piston ring is still only in contact with the cylinder wall for half its width, still not completely bedded in! I got a heap of paperwork with the hammer including manual and leaflets about mounting and maitenance, and some correspondence from Davy-Loewy Ltd. Press Division dated 23rd December, 1981 to the then owner of the hammer, a Mr J. W. Vivian (since deceased) about the same. It was signed by a S. Hampson. Interesting to read through the old manuals and pamphlets and to note the difference in language and grammar to what is used today. Now all I've got to do is get the rest of the shed built and make it into a workshop (I'll see if I can attach a picture of what I looks like at the moment) With it being open like it is it's bloody difficult to work when the temp is over 30C and I can't fire up the forge on total fire ban days, which leaves me with nights and about two days a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 That would have to be nice and hot working on that concrete when the temp gets up over 30 with the Aussie sun blazing down over you. Put up a roof farmweld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmweld Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Revivng a very old thread but I thought I'd throw in the following. After a very long time the shed is finally up and I've been forging in it. Haven't got any pictures to post at the moment as I dropped my phone and it died (thankfully, blessed peace for a couple of days until I had to get a new one). I'll try and post some as soon as I can take some more. The hammer still doesn't work in the low pressure hold up position so I'm going to have to pull the valve and see what is going on there. I might be after a copy of the manual as I've been back through all the paperwork I got and the relevant troubleshooting pages I need seem to be missing. I tried ringing John N but I probably mucked up the time zone bit. I'll have to email again. I've also managed to dislodge the top taper key but the bottom one is still stuck solid so I've got a bit more work to go there. The dies are getting quite deformed and while it's handy having a multiform die for drawing out different shapes the scale dents are getting prety deep and it's a pain having to smooth them out on the anvil afterwards. Otherwise everything is going too well and I'm really going to need a break at Christmas time. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Ping me a email to forgemasters@optusnet.com.au and I'll send you the relevant part of the manual. If the hammer was working OK when it last finished work, I would be hesitant to go stuffing with the valves until you have exhausted all other avenues of remedy, there is a 3cwt in sides down at the old South Maitland Railways workshop near me that I used to demo at, it had its valves pulled apart and has never run quite right ever since. If you do stuff with the valves, be sure to document all the original measurements before you begin so as you can at least go back to what you started with. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmweld Posted November 4, 2012 Author Share Posted November 4, 2012 Thanks for the warning Phil, and I will be doing just that. I pulled the valve spindle out and gave it a good eyeballing, nothing seems to be cracked or badly worn so I put it back in and started by checking the height at full work. The top control valve was sitting 1 to 1.5mm low, so I pull it all back out, adjust the setting, put it back in to check, dead level as per the "0" stamped on top, pull it all back out to bend the lock tabs over, and then re-assemble to test. The hammer now tups about 12 - 15mm but will not rise unless I lever it up, then it gradually descends until it is tupping again. If I depress the foot lever a bit I get it to rise about 100 - 120 mm and it cycles through about an 80mm stroke which makes me think that there is something out with the valve spindle so I'm going to have to pull it again and go over it with a measuring device. Something else to add to "the list". Thanks for the email James, those pages were the ones I had seen but seem to have gone missing. Now to feed it into a speadsheet and convert it all to metric. Regards Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 To adjust the valve to '0' (zero stamped on the tube) you do not adjust the top valve portion. You move the whole valve up. The adjustable top valve portion is to make best of the 'full work' position only. Since the adjustment of the whole valve up or down is a 'factory' setting , and then it is pinned with a taper pin in the bottom socket it is unlikely to have changed. This suggests that the valve linkages / handlever have got strained at some point, perhaps when the machine was moved. If the whole valve is 1.5 mm out are you sure that your 'low pressure hold up' position is not just 1.5 mm out ? - ie, can you find a handlever position (ignoring the slots on the quadrant) where the tup lifts ok? The other possibility is wear in the links and pins that attach to the valve, they should only have 0.001" clearance. A 2 cwt with the stuffing box clearances you measured should not have a problem lifting to low pressure hold up. You could try strips of thick leather as the stuffing box packing. The other thing to check is if the escape holes are plugged in the skirt of the compressor piston. (you can view this from the side access cover with the crank at BDC. I would put the top valve portion back to where it should be before making more adjustments to things. Do one thing at a time, then check it. Its easy to get in a mess if you try lots of things at once ! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 To further what John said, start the hammer, put it in gear (in low press hold up) then pull in the locking position lever (the one that goes in the slots to keep it in that mode of operation) see if you can by pushing the lever forward get the hammer to sit with the ram in the hold up position, it will only be probably a small adjustment, if you can keep the ram up by doing that, then you need to put shims under the foot control swing in block to keep it in that position. Once you are happy with the amount of shims transfer them to the top of the block by undoing the nut underneath the block, dropping the block off drilling holes in your shims to allow the rod to go through them, put the shims in there, block back on the rod nut back on and do it up tight, start the hammer and try again. I've taken photos of our 5 to show how the shims are between the rod and the block, I reckon we would have about 3mm of packing in there to get our hammer to stay up. (jobs have over the years fallen on the foot pedal and stretched to linkages) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmweld Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 I've just got back onto the computer for the first time in a couple of days so thanks for all the advice and the saga did continue. I got the shits trying to work with it yesterday and decided to try and fix it. Shut down the forge, unbolted the covers and dragged out the measuring gear. Start with the measurements on the top, all good except I have 4mm more travel between hold down and hold up than I should have, worry about it later. Pull the spindle and work my way down that, quickly work out that the only ones I can alter are the ones between the blocks and they are altering themselves as there is about 1mm slop below the pegged nut on the top. I adjusted the top valve back to where it was originally and then set to work filing a washer to get rid of the slop. I got that done and it all fits together snug with the valves still able to rotate and everything where it should be according to the measurements. Re-install the spindle and check the top measurements again, full work is back where it was and I now have 5mm extra on the hold up, nothing I can adjust there. Fire the beast up and see how it goes Low pressure hold up has the hammer tupping about 20mm but not lifting, ease down on the lever and the hammer lifts about 100mm and hovers in 30mm range and then descends and starts hammering as I ease down further. Works out I've got to shim the locking lever about 2mm so I did that. As it stands at the moment the hammer works as it should except that the low pressure hold up doesn't lift the hammer fully, I can lever the hammer up to full height and it will hold there, and using it last night sometimes it would gradually lift itself up, but most of the time it hovers around 100mm. I don't know whether it is a problem with the valve timing or the pressure/volume from the compressor but at least it is a lot more useable than it was before and possibly it will sort itself out with use. Regards Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 You need to put some proper gland packing tape in it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I agree gland packing. If you google "kevlar packing gland" with the australian pages only toggle turned on you should find someone, go for the sizes John has specified. If you have no luck get back to me the guy I go through can get it no probs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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