poundhound Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I am new to blacksmithing, and even newer to blade smithing. I have read through the stickies (very informative, well done and great info). but my question is what order do you make the knifes in. I have tried several different experiments, but figure that rather then find out by trial and error I would ask the experts. I have tried, forging the blade to approximate shape, cooling rapidly then trying to shape the blade (working with hard steel not too much fun). second attempt was to forge the blade to approximate shape, then anneal the steel (bring up to curie point, then put in sand til cool, then refine the blade. but how far should I go before then tempering the blade, since I don't want to redo steps like filing, sanding and polishing if that will be destroyed with the tempering. hope this is clear, just looking for efficient steps in blade making like forging, shaping, smoothing, tempering, re smoothing, polishing PoundHound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Are you sure you read. the stickies on heat treat? I ask that quite bluntly as you said you quenched a blade and then worked on finishing. Then you asked about annealing in sand and smoothing blade before tempering. Annealing a blade before smoothing it some is a great plan. With several of the steels if you do much after hardening and before tempering may cause failure of the blade by cracking.Hardening should be followed by tempering. Not as you mentioned in the last part of your question. Seems like that would leave out the hardening part. Yes I am one of the picky ones that is hung up on details. At my age I simply try and avoid all of the mistakes I have done in the past and put those lessons to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poundhound Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share Posted September 17, 2011 sorry for the confusion, in my first attempt I hardened (quenched) the blade before working on the finish. then after reading the articles on heat treating and tempering, I tried forging to rough shape, then annealing, then shaping with grinder and files, and sand paper, next will harden ( per the sticky articles) then try to temper, then finish and sharpen. I did not know how much hardening and or tempering will destroy any work done on the blade previously. For example if I file and then sand down the blade to 400 grit, will the heating to curie temp and quenching undo some or much of my work? here is a sequence I found from another site. -Forge Knife Blank -Normalize (cycle of 3) (is annealing with one heat good enough?) -Rough Grind and clean up -Harden the blade -Temper the blade -Polishing and Sharpening Where does the sanding step come in? Before Harden? PoundHound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caotropheus Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 here is a sequence I found from another site. -Forge Knife Blank -Normalize (cycle of 3) (is annealing with one heat good enough?) -Rough Grind and clean up -Harden the blade -Temper the blade -Polishing and Sharpening Where does the sanding step come in? Before Harden? PoundHound PoundHound I am also new to blacksmithing and bladesmithing. Up until today I forged a couple of knives and these are the steps I follow and I do it all by hand! I suppose the "Rough Grind and clean up" step starts by grinding, then filing and finally sanding to at least 120 sandpaper. I do the annealing with a single heat inside the wood stove or in the solid fuel forge using wood. Light the fuel, supply some air slowly to bring metal to cherry red and cut the air supply. 12 hours later the metal is still so hot I cannot touch it by hand! And yes, just like many things in life, making a knife might be a very tedious process! filing, sanding and polishing a knife takes a lot of time and effort that often you have to start the all process from the beginning, for example, sanding after hardening and tempering. I tried to find all sorts of short cuts but up until today I destroyed my work with short cuts! Now, if you want to see several videos of people making knives, check these channels.http://www.youtube.c...r/MrIronman1979http://www.youtube.com/user/laneakjt Also post #28 on this thread may help you find some information on knife making steps http://www.iforgeiro...st/page__st__20 enjoy and good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poundhound Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 I watched the videos, in the ones from the second link, they guy anneals prior to forging, is that necessary, I would think you would anneal after forging, so that the blade is softer when filing, sanding etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 See if you can get "Step-by-Step Knifemaking" by David Boye. It is not about smithing blades but one chapter is the complete checklist you have to follow to make a blade his way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlissStreet Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 -Forge Knife Blank -Rough Grind and clean up - sanding is done here up to 120grit -Normalize (cycle of 3) (is annealing with one heat good enough?) I was told to do this after shaping, since you want all the stresses out before hardening. Grinding is a stress. -Harden the blade -Temper the blade -Sanding here up to 1200 grit then Polishing and wrapping blade to protect -Mounting bolster and handle material -Shaping and finishing handle -Sharpening That is how I was taught, and what I have gathered from research. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 My process goes roughly like this: (1) Forge as close to shape as I can get it, bearing in mind that my hammer control is mediocre, and that I still often end up with deeper scale pits than I'd like --or than I would've predicted from looking at the forged blade. Finish with a normalizing cycle or two after forging. In the simple steels I use, normalizing means "heat slightly above critical and allow to air cool into black." (2) De-scale using ferric chloride (fast, somewhat hazardous) or vinegar (slower, quite safe), abrasives, or some combination of these. (Lately it's usually a few minutes in ferric chloride, followed by a scrub in hot, soapy water with a Scotchbrite pad.) (3) Stock removal to refine shape, using a combination of grinders, files, stones and/or sandpaper, up to about 220 grit. (I don't go much higher than that because the heat treating process is likely to cause a few scars on the blade, at least the way I heat treat.) I leave the edge of the blade at least the thickness of a dime prior to quenching. The thinner the edge, the more prone it'll be to crack. On the other hand, stock removal on a hardened blade with hand tools -- which are mostly what I use -- is truly no fun, and the thicker the edge the more stock removal you'll have to do. So you try to find a reasonable compromise. (4) Normalize a couple more times to remove residual stresses from stock removal, straightening as necessary during the process. (Stock removal can leave a surprising amount of stress built up in the steel.) (5) Apply clay & allow to dry (if applicable). In some cases I've been known to apply a homemade anti-scale compound (basically a boric acid paste). I have never tried to combine the two (clay & anti-scale). (5) Harden. For me, this generally means quenching in a fast oil (Parks 50) from 1500 F, as close as I can gauge it. Your process will depend on your steel. (6) Temper immediately at an appropriate temperature for the steel and the intended use of the blade. I typically temper twice, for an hour each cycle. Because I temper in the kitchen oven, whereas I do most of my forging half an hour from home, I often do a flash temper cycle with the forge (spine down, watching the temper colors run) or with a propane torch immediately after quenching. That really isn't ideal, but I'm extremely paranoid about leaving a blade sitting around full hard any longer than I absolutely have to. Even if a blade survives the quench, it can crack spontaneously minutes or hours later, if it isn't tempered. Martensite formation causes a lot of internal stress in high carbon steels, particularly ones that aren't very deep-hardening. So, to me, an untempered blade is like a ticking time bomb -- but no one knows how much time is on the clock. I want to get it "defused" as soon as possible. (7) Go back to work with stones, sandpaper, and potentially other abrasives (buffing compound, pumice in oil, etc.), to the desired finish. This is by far the most miserable part of the process for me. Wrap the blade in masking tape (I sometimes used duct tape -- whatever I have on hand) to protect it during the next step. (8) Form and attach fittings, handle, etc. (9) Remove protective covering and sharpen blade. (10) Make sheath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Note: I do not bother with annealing. For the simple steels I use, I find the normalized condition adequate for stock removal. And in steels with greater than about 0.8-0.85% carbon content, the traditional overnight anneal in wood ash, vermiculite, etc., can cause problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poundhound Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 thank you BlissStreet and MattBower for you input. for some reason even though the process should be easy and easy to find out the steps (and some tips/tricks at each step), it is not easy to come by. I will print out both your replies and keep them in my work shop till I get the process down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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