Luristan Iron Swords

[Bentiron1946]

http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/display.php?item=580-577-579-583-582-581-576-578 I saw this picture of all these ancient Luristan Iron Age swords and thought of all you swordsmiths. Here is something different! It may spark a new design for you. Enjoy! :D

[ThomasPowers]

I didn't think they were casting iron in that time/place. A cast iron sword would be quite inferior---to a wooden one!

[Bentiron1946]

You think that those are cast not forged? What was your reasoning behind the casting thought? I was thinking that they were all made by the same smith and forged from wrought or bloom iron not cast. :blink:

[ThomasPowers]

Ahh the title of the picture was "Near East (Luristan) Iron Collection cast iron swords with handles" this indicated to me that they might be cast---the handles definitely are made to look like the cast bronze ones that proceeded iron ones.

Without inspecting them I can't say that this is not a simple translation error and were forged to resemble the earlier ones.

To us "iron" usually means "wrought iron" but to machinists it usually means "cast iron".

[Playinwitmetal]

I think they are referring to the casting process i.e. pouring the molten iron into a mold rather then Cast iron. I don't believe Cast iron (iron with a carbon content of 6.00% or higher) is forgable and would definitely have no practical use as am impact weapon let alone a sword.

[Bentiron1946]

I actually put on my reading glasses, what a difference that makes, however I just can't see that these are true cast iron blades in the sense that I think of cast iron like I use when I'm at the iron pour. That stuff breaks when you look at it cross eyed and I don't think these blades would have survived intact if it was that kind of cast iron. I, too, was amazed a how much this form of blade followed the previous shape of the bronze age blades, by the way did you look at the bronze age "axes", they didn't stray far from the linage of blade and hilt shape for the new technology. I sent the museum a note asking for clarification as to material. :huh:

[ThomasPowers]

Thanks for checking up on them---of course museums don't always get it right either...

Looks like we can use a check on ferrous metals process history. Casting of steel in Europe was about 2000 years after those were made and even early crucible steel work done in central asia only produced "pucks". Cast to shape in steel is quite a modern thing as you need good metallurgy to deal with casting issues like large grains. Casting of cast iron was known in China and they even came up with a surface decarburization process to make steel faced cast iron objects. So suggesting that these were cast from steel is like suggesting that the illuminations of the Lindisfarne Gospels were made using apple computers.

In the West Huntsman is generally created with the invention of "crucible steel" in the 1740's though places like Merv were doing it in Central Asia around the first century AD---still 700 years later than the Luristani blades and again both places casting ingots that were then heavily forged to refine the grain.

I heartily concur that cast iron would be a ludicrous material to make swords from.

[MattBower]

I suspect someone at the museum doesn't know the difference between wrought and cast iron. That's not very surprising; to most people, "wrought iron" refers to certain architectural and landscaping items made of metal (by just about any process whatsoever), not a material.

[ThomasPowers]

My guess is that it's a translation error; how many translators know the details of ferrous metals and their processes?

I ran into this once when using a native Japanese speaker to help me vet some earthquake bracing plans. Even with a technical Japanese dictionary they still came up with "this bar is like where a ship travels". To me that meant "channel" steel. To them it was a mystery. (I will say that the Japanese designed earthquake bracing was very well done, especially as it was to be insulated from the system---for years after that job I knew the kanji for "insulating bushing"...)

[Bentiron1946]

"this bar is like where a ship travels"..................That is always the problem with translation form one language to another. A friend of mine was a bible translator and where it says in Luke11:12 about the egg and scorpion they had to reverse that for the particular tribal group they were working with. Eating eggs was a big bad thing to do while having your father present you with a large scorpion to eat was a great honor. Snakes were also good eats too but they also thought bread a very special treat too.
Those swords don't appear to be cast iron but I would sure like to examine them in person and some of the bronze weapons also. :blink:

[Timothy Miller]

This is a cast bronze spear I own from Luristan. I was told if I remember correctly that It was made in 1300 BC. I feel that there must have been some forging done to form the socket because it is very thin. It is a truly fine piece of metal work. The fluting on the blade is truly elegant. It is about 13" long in total. It was a Christmas present given to me by my father a few years ago. I was blown away when he gave it to me in fact I still sort of don't fully grasp the fact that I own something so old and so fine.