Timothy Miller Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I have been forging a lot of wrought iron this year. On a series of historical type projects. All of the material has been reworked scrap that I have accumulated over the years. It has come from a wide range of sources ranging from about 1800 up to the 1940's. When I test to see if I have wrought iron I do a spark test and a break test. I have found the spark test to be unreliable as there seems to be a lot of variability in how wrought iron sparks. Wile a lot of it follows the classic orange sparks with no or very few little explosions I have noticed that some ( a very small proportion though) of wrought iron does spark like very low carbon steel. It will have spark bursts here and there and the sparks will be brighter. I find the break test to be very reliable. But a few instances where I have been truly puzzled. I have gotten a few bars where the material sparked like a low carbon steel it had normal fibers like wrought iron. But it seemed to be whiter in color at the break verses the normal grey color. In another instance it sparked like carbon steel and when it broke it broke like had some fibers but not as pronounced as the usual thing one sees when breaking wrought iron. it almost seems like a steel/wrought iron hybrid. Also it could be hardened to a fair degree in water. My latest puzzle is the weirdest I had gotten this bar out of an old mill building with a bunch of stuff that turned out to be all wrought iron. I spark tested it and I got sparks like steel. I then cut half way threw the bar and bent it till the end sheared off. It was a lot harder to do than normal wrought iron. When I looked at the tear I saw not fibers but layers and the layers were like steel not wrought iron. it almost seemed like the bar was a steel laminate of some sort. The first picture is of this material. The second bar is of a normal wrought iron break test. I am intrested in your thoughts and opinions. Thanks Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 It looks like it's............ alive.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 It looks like it's............ alive.......... I thought Brain Coral at first thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 That is some strange looking stuff.... No help from me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Interesting indeed! I have seen wrought iron that varies from gross to nearly pure iron and a bunch of things in between. Until the Aston process, wrought iron was made in relatively small batches and the quality and composition was dependent the materials used, the skill of the operators, the day of the week and the will of the fire gods. And that was just for virgin material. Add to the mix the product known as "rolled scrap". A product that had the usual variables, plus highly dependent on the person sorting the scrap. All of the small batch operations from the Catalan forge to the puddling furnace were capable of producing anything from near zero-carbon wrought to high-carbon cast iron and anything in between and often contained small quantities of all of them. I notice you mention "blister steel" in your title. I imagine blister steel had similar grain. Blister steel was usually made from "Norway iron", a very pure low-slag product made by a charcoal process. The process was standardized on a 5/8 X 3" bar. After carurization the material was no longer "iron", but it was still "wrought" and would likely still have the characteristic grain of wrought iron. I'm not willing or able to draw any conclusions from the above, just trying to outline some of the variables you're looking at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 How about shear steel? It definitely looks layered and at a fineness I would consider suitable for shear or double shear steel. This would explain the hardening too. Got any to sell/trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 How about shear steel? It definitely looks layered and at a fineness I would consider suitable for shear or double shear steel. This would explain the hardening too. Got any to sell/trade? I have about 24" of it as far as i know it was a tie rod in its former life. Seems odd to use shear steel for a tie rod but you never know. I am not actually sure if this stuff will harden I have not tried yet. I do have a bar with very fine close fibers that will harden I will post some pics of that later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Most of the bases have ben covered here in this post, but I will add a summation: Wrought iron is a general product made by the puddling process and as such the chemistry and character varies a large amount. Carbon level is NOT the deciding factor is what is or is not wrought iron. Some wrought was very rough..."Muck Bar" and others was welded and re-stacked for welding many times. Same goes for shear steel (which is multi stacked and welded blister steel) and its parent product Blister steel (may have been multi welded wrought as feeder stock). By the looks of it you have multi welded wrought iron or shear steel as the grin runs in a nice consistent layering. Grant ...mostly "Swedish" iron was used...though since the Swedes owned Norway till recently you get a pass. Good set of books by Ken Barraclough on the history of this in Sheffield UK as well as the mentioned James Aston little book on "Wrought Iron". Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Yeah well, early stainless was often called "Russian iron" too. The book I have "Cementation of Iron and Steel" documents the manufacture of blister steel in Sheffield during the early 20th century. They constantly refer to the raw material as "Best Norway Iron". Described as being made by the Waloon process or the Lancaster process, the smelting being done using only charcoal. Forty years ago, the hundred-year old blacksmith shop I worked at, had piles of "Norway iron". All in the same 5/8 X 3 that was popular with the blister steel makers. At that time we just using the stuff for slats in the burning table! Course in that shop we had our own names for everything; square tube was always "Norway pipe", and solid round bar was "Polish pipe". We used "Molly Denim grease" and lubed other stuff with "silly cones". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 OK, I forged out a small hunk and tried to harden it in water it did harden much if at all. It is definitely harder to forge than wrought iron. It sparks tests very similar to 1018 not like "classic" low carbon wrought iron. I'm going to speculate that it is a lamination of aka Multi-welded low carbon steel not wrought iron. Why someone would make such a product I have no idea. I do remember hearing that there were multi ply steels made for plows, safes, screws and armor plate. But I'm just speculating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I have Polish neighbors and married into a Norwegian family..neither terms would work well here, but Russians and Swedes are fair game I think. SouthShore..try a higher temp before you quench..like bright orange...just in case. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I have Polish neighbors and married into a Norwegian family..neither terms would work well here, but Russians and Swedes are fair game I think. SouthShore..try a higher temp before you quench..like bright orange...just in case. Ric Well, we were all sons of Norwegian immigrants and we had fun with it. Anything square was fair game. I have an 1800's text that lists the carbon content of wrought iron as near zero to .20%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 I tried 3 quenches one at about 1450 ish one at about 1600 and one at sparkling yellow. It did not harden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Sorry; I had mis-read your post to indicate that the one in question was higher in carbon. Strike the Shear Steel possibility. Now take a small section and hot twist it and then etch it to see if it makes pretty furniture for knives! When studying the early bloomery process used to make wrought iron by the direct process I was amused to find out that a single bloomery could make anything from just about zero carbon content wrought iron to high carbon wrought iron to even cast iron! And sometimes a mix of all of them would be present in a bloom. Reading old blacksmithing texts they often mention testing every single bar that came into the shop to "see what it was". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Tomas, I might have another bar that fits that bill I will do some tests and let you know. I might even send you a piece if your good. I don't make knives really. It will get put up on the weird metal rack next to the forge until it fits the bill for something. I'm more of a tool, hardware and ornamental guy. Sharp things are not really my thing. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 You use any "Martian metal" Grant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 You use any "Martian metal" Grant? Never heard that one. I'm still looking for my bar of unobtainium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Never heard that one. I'm still looking for my bar of unobtainium. I heard the "Unobtanium" was now a copyrighted term....don;t see how is it is long in use, but.... Some guy was making "round toits" as well... Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I think I stored my unobtanium next to the adamantite; I don't remember where I stored my bar of helium... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I heard the "Unobtanium" was now a copyrighted term....don;t see how is it is long in use, but.... Some guy was making "round toits" as well... Ric Well, Microsoft was able to trademark "Windows". Think that's been around awhile too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I was told a lot of the tooling I have that came from Breki was made from a unknown alloy refered to as martian metal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Breki. Brekke! Musta been something they made up after I left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve H Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 My favorite basher hammer came out of the dirt floor in that place. Literally- it was probably buried under 6" of ash. It's a ~4lb sledge someone had forged a ball peen on one end of. Loved the Jib cranes in the place, too. Boatbuilding and outfitting isn't dead in Seattle. A year or two ago the power blew out on a few blocks because 40 supposed welders were working on Tom Cruise's latest yacht! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Thought for sure Tom would need a B-17 or was it a B-19?, any how, how are they going to get to the after world in another yacht unless they are doing waterworld? Now Harold has all of my wrought iron. I wonder what my boiler face plate is made of? Most likely a mild steel of some kind. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.