forging small branches onto a larger trunk

[territorialmillworks]

I'd like to do more organic items. Specifically to redo and existing double gate where I taper and texture 5/8 rnd stock and then branch off with 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 and then leaves.....Don't like the look of tig/mig welding...Question is how to forge weld these pieces together and make it blend in and look natural. Here is where I've committed myself beyond my abilities, to my wife none the less LOL. I'm open to all ideas...Keith

[bigfootnampa]

Check this thread dealing with the same issue:Jump welding ginko leaves

[Drewed]

easiest way is to cheat and wire weld them on, then beat the welded section in the forge to make it look right.

Otherwise you have to different size metals tring to get to welding heat at the same time. It can be done with practice, some put the bigger metal in first, others use a hotter and colder spot of the fire. I stick both pieces in the same spot, heat to fluxing temp, flux and then move the smaller one to a slightly cooler spot and kind of hold it at welding temp until the bigger one catches up. This is not the best practice as you tend to bun the little one up, but nobody said I did things the easy way. :P

[Pat Roy]

Your link doesn't really answer the question bigfootnampa. I've been doing it with my oxy/acetylene torch but I'd like to see a good demo of a fire weld method. I've tried the mig approach and didn't like the effect.

[Timothy Miller]

If you want to spend your time doing doing blacksmithing and not welding and grinding forge welding is the way to go.

[fciron]

Your material sizes are not that out of line. It should be quite possible with a bit of practice. I take the opposite approach from Drewed, I get the large part up to welding heat first and then make the small bit catch up. It is easier to keep the large piece at or near welding temp without burning it badly.

I've been in the middle of the same thing and I'm using an approach similar to the Mark Aspery video that Southshore posted. I would suggest practicing the welds with some scrap first to get the feel for it. I welded up a bunch of trial leaves and test pieces to make a sort of 'mutant' tree-branch to prove the concept to myself.

I weld the stems of two leaves together and then I weld that slightly larger mass to the drawn down end of a larger bar, weld a couple of those together and then to the drawn down end of a larger bar. By making the pairs different lengths and varying the tapers and angles that they open I can disguise the pairs. Sometimes I pair a doubled pair with a single larger bar to get some smaller bits coming off.

Good Luck and Have Fun.

Lewis

[dablacksmith]

well from what ive done along those lines its more prep and finish work than the method of welding what i suggest is welding at slight angles get a good weld clean up hammer well then heat and shape... the secret is getting the right angles and shape to make it look more natural forge welding works well but this instance i dont think it will help you to make a better product ... good luck!

[territorialmillworks]

Good advice/ideas....With inconsistent forge welds on my part and the size of what I'm hoping to do, forge welding is probably not the right approach this time. Hadn't even thought about torch welding. Would probably get me there better than tig/mig. Amazing how sometimes we don't even consider all the options.... With an adjustable brick forge and a rose bud, I can heat the larger pieces and then forge to shape a smooth transition. Will also work on test pieces to before jumping into this....a good excuse to work on my forge welding....THX

[macbruce]

My feeling is if you don't stray too far from two dimensional pieces it can be done. Go to three and everything changes, I can't imagine trying to coax a bush into the fire, and try to FW a larger mass to smaller.Restoring the texture is an issue forge welded or mig I mostly use a small cutoff wheel on a die grinder........Dressing mig welds is a bit of a pain but with the right stuff not too bad, l like a 1/4'' die grinder with a cone shaped end (double cut only). The shards produced by a single cut are super sharp, the single are at least more granular. After that I needle scale the spot, then blu or torch patina the joint. Works for me.......mb

[macbruce]

My feeling is if you don't stray too far from two dimensional pieces it can be done. Go to three and everything changes, I can't imagine trying to coax a bush into the fire, and try to FW a larger mass to smaller........Dressing mig welds is a bit of a pain but with the right stuff not too bad, l like a 1/4'' die grinder with a cone shaped end (double cut only). The shards produced by a single cut are super sharp, the single are at least more granular. After that I needle scale the spot, then blu or torch patina the joint. Works for me.......mb

[territorialmillworks]

MacBruce....it obviously works very well for you....Your tree is unbelievable....I've thought that a needle scaler would be useful tool but hadn't run up against a 'need' for one. Back to the forge....THX

[Frank Turley]

I've used a "simple scarf" on the branch going to the stem. It is a three faceted taper to a point somewhat like Asbury's, only I don't shoulder. The flat side untouched with the hammer goes against a "lump" of extra diameter on the stem. The lump allows for scale, spark, and hammer loss. On small stem stock, it is easier to forge to a smaller diameter, leaving the lump, rather than trying to upset in the middle of the rod.

The old timers used to haywire the pieces together while they were straight. You probably need two separate wraps of wire; otherwise, twisting results. Another problem with haywire is when it's hot, it expands and the two pieces may become loose and get out of alignment.

Forget the baling wire. After I align the straight pieces, I put a small arc welding tack on the side. After borax flux, I heat the pieces together, using a slow rising heat. Start by hammering on top of the branch scarf. Then hit the sides and do a square, octagonal, round. It might take more than one heat.

The idea of pointing the scarf from the side is not well understood. It is because the scarf is APPLIED to round stock, not square or flat. You do not want a wide scarf applied to round stock or while you're welding, it will fishtail on you, resulting in two thin 'ears.' I guarantee that you do not want the ears, as you will need to roll them around the stem and weld and reweld.

This kind of setup will give a vee shaped stem-branch. There will be a naturally resulting "vanishing point" at the joint (a tiny line or shut) which is a concomitant of the forge weld. This gives the desirable, organic growthy appearance that you want.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[macbruce]

MacBruce....it obviously works very well for you....Your tree is unbelievable....I've thought that a needle scaler would be useful tool but hadn't run up against a 'need' for one. Back to the forge....THX

When I bought mine I was thinking........bust flux from stick weld........ decades since then I've discovered they have many uses ...........I'm not trying to sell you one, but I'm sold on em...mb