newbladesmith Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I am using propane rite now, but i was wondering about using map gas, or acetylene. I think that i would like the effects more but i wanted other peoples opinions. Any input? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 What are you trying to accomplish? Propane will melt steel in a well made forge as will MAAP as will Acetylene. However Propane is much CHEAPER and EASIER to get and use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I can attest to propane melting steel. Easy to do in a small, decently insulated forge with 1 burner. (about 150 cu inch) Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Acetylene is in short supply nationally, so the price has skyrocketed, and most outlets are rationing their existing customers, and not accepting new accounts. You get more bang for your buck by insulating your forge better, using a heat reflective coating over the insulation, tuning your fuel/air mix, and adding pure oxygen to your burner air supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbladesmith Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 thanks. i don't have an air flow system in my forge. I've wanted to re-insulate my forge for a while now, but I'm not sure with the small home made set up that i have how to get any kind of air flow in. i have a spiral blow torch head attached with a three foot hose to a 5 gallon propane tank. How can i get good air flow in or maby some oxygen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 What sort of forge do you have? When you say "spiral flow torch head" I think of something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-19199-019199-Hose-Torch/dp/B0006V6NKY If that's what you're using, step one is to make or buy a real propane burner, and put it in a real forge. Search this site for "burner design" and "propane forge" to get lots of ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 What does your system look like? Size, shape, materials used, etc? What's wrong with your set up? it may be as simple of putting a 1" liner of kaowool in it or as difficult as rebuilding the forge and making a new burner. That type of burner is generally considered only suitable for "micro forges" of insulative refractories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Where are you located? If you put your general location by your listing, you may have someone very near to you that could help you out. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Some time ago i ran out of propane, and tried MAPP, the rosebud fuel I use, the explosion kinda frightened me from using that as forge fuel, it ignited from the heat of the forge, and got my attention very quick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbladesmith Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 well it is a blow torch head that i saw someone using once and went and got it. I am about to pull a complete rebuild on my forge. I made a micro forge from a large can, two inches of kaowool and a good blow torch head held in by a pipe that i brazed onto the side of the can and held on with wing screws. I was never able to get any refractory to line it with before i started using it. It dose the job for just hammering out metal, but i want to start trying to pattern weld so i was going to get a different set up. I was going to get a piece of half inch thick iron piping from a dealer around here, hopefully about two feet long and 12 to 18 inches in diameter. I was going to line it with about three inches of kaowoll and then a layer of refractory. I was also thinking about getting a splitter for my propane line and making it a duel burner system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Half inch thick pipe is massive overkill. Thinner is better. Old propane tanks, freon bottles, ammo cans, even metal 5 gallon paint cans and expanded metal mesh have been used. All the shell does is contain the insulation, and give you mounting points for the hardware. Here, do your own homework. http://www.forgemonkeys.com/ http://zoellerforge.com/coffee.html http://zoellerforge.com/customers.html http://ronreil.abana.org/Forge1.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bower Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Yeah,half inch is pointless unless you want the thing to double as a ballistic shield The diameter you have in mind will also make for a big forge by most hobbyists' standards, even with all the insulation. That's fine if you need it, but it wastes gas if you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Food for thought: My gasser is a 1 burner, mailbox shape, that is 5 wide 9 long and about 5 tall(internal dimensions). It is sized to a common firebrick for the floor, has 1 layer of wool under the brick, and 2 layers up the sides and over the top. With one 3/4 burner it will melt steel. It also will melt this brick, but since I have a few more I don't care too much, but does have concern to be careful. The internal volume is about 150 cubic inches. It uses about 1 running foot of 1 inch ceramic wool (2 square feet) and was built using one 24 inch piece of 6" black stovepipe. It is fastened with zip screws (self drilling sheet metal screws) There is a single layer of wool on the back wall with a pass thru hole about 1 inch tall. Changes I would make: a slot in one side about 5-6 inches long and the thickness of a firebrick tall. I would also build a place to have a firebrick supported even with the inside firebrick so I could load up flat but irregular shaped items and close the hole with a brick when I didn't need it. a better front door since it is and open arch. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbladesmith Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 I will take into account to make sure that the pipe i use isn't quite as thick as i was making it. I do need it thick enough to hold the pipe that the burner is led through. I don't have an air feed so i guess that you would call it an atmospheric forge. I still want it to be a relatively deep forge because i do work on things that have been up to 20 inches long or so. My current forge doesn't have a door and that could be one of the main problems, so in the new one I'll come up with some kind of door or at least a narrower opening then the open face that it has now. Thanks for all the input and please keep it coming. Oh and i found the specs on my burner. TS8000 Trigger-Start Torch (black) (TS8000BTb) * Ultra swirl hgh intensity flame http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/TORCHES/PROFESSIONALTORCHES/tabid/230/ctl/Detail/mid/1009/xmid/6944/xmfid/3/Default.aspx I don't really have the ability to construct my own burner, so if anyone can suggest something that i could buy that would work better that would be helpful. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Zoller forge sells complete kits that only require tuning. You can use a sheet metal shell with a pass through to heat longer lengths than the forge body. Zoeller has all the parts necessary for a kit that can be assembled with simple tools (drill, tin shears, saw, etc) His prices are competitive, and his service is good, but I think he only ships one day a week so plan for an extra week on the turn-around. http://zoellerforge.com/flare.html As I mentioned earlier, black stove pipe is an excellent shell material, and will support the burner holder assembly Zoller offers. You can cut the hole with shears in the sheet metal easily with some care. Insulation products and high-temperature fire bricks are also offered. Draw your plan out on paper before ordering and building. On a 20 inch heated length...what do you do that you are working that much at one time? Lots of twisting and scroll? With care I can get about that length heated past red in my 9 inch 1 burner by moving the stock about while it heats. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Sounds like you want to get a dump truck to drive around town in because a couple of times a year you want to get a load of gravel! I'm getting the feeling you are talking *big* blades; if so: I'd size your forge for the work you want to do most often and then do up another for long stuff. (Y'all know that when you are swordmaking you only want to heat up as much of the stock as you can work---otherwise you get grain growth, decarburization and scale losses on areas you aren't even working! Only time you need the whole length up to temp is heat treating and far more economical to have a simple forge just for that than to be paying to heat and degrade your metal the rest of the time.) Really you probably want your welding forge to be separate than your working forge and your heat treat forge. And as you want to start with knives and work up to the big ones you have plenty of time to start with the working forge; add in the welding forge and finally do the heat treat forge when you run out of room in the working forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Listen to Phil. He's steering you right. With that said, making a burner really isn't hard. If you have the capacity to build the forge you described, you can probably build a simple propane burner. Nothing wrong with buying if you like, but don't do it because you assume building one would be an impossible task. It isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbladesmith Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 well i did some digging and i was thinking about the Oliver-upwind propane blower. It looks like a good design but i was wondering about making a couple of changes. Dose anyone think it would work if i put the propane pipe on the other side of the air holes so that i could side or top mount it? I think that i could do that a little more easily, and also there was one thing in the plans that was unclear to me, weather or not the flare was on the outside or the inside. I think that it is on the outside but I'm not sure. I was also thinking about making it a forced air. Instead of putting the holes along the pipe i was thinking about attaching a small blower to the other end of it. I don't know if that would work or if it would blow out the flame. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbladesmith Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 sorry. i just realized that i didn't describe the Oliver-upwind at all. here is the link to the page. http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Either build a blown burner or build a naturally aspirated burner. There are enough designs here on IFI that are well described. I use this burner. There are many other choices.http://www.iforgeiro...__1#entry121812 Tuning it is a bit fiddly because you have to cut the contact tip down without creating an artifact that disrupts gas flow. Once it is tuned you leave it be. There may be more efficient burners, but this one is easy to build. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 If you have an adequate blower, by all means make a blown burner. (You don't need it to move a whole lot of air by volume, but it needs to be able to handle a little back pressure.) As long as you have a decent blower, blown burners are simple to build and relatively easy to tune. But in that case you don't need to be looking at Reil burners, Olivers, T-Rexes, etc. Those all operate on a totally different principle. Look at these: http://www.cashenblades.com/info/gas_forges.html http://www.dfoggknives.com/forge.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 If you don't have an adequate blower to make a blown burner, make a naturally aspirated burner. The one Phil linked to (and uses) receives good reviews around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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