Fine tuning Massey

[JNewman]

I am trying again to fine tune an issue I have with my Massey 5cwt hammer, I have had this problem as long as I have had the hammer. I have spent all day reading the manual and drawing then tearing the hammer apart trying something and putting it back together. I have checked the check valves and distances between valve parts and everything matches the manual.

I have two issues the more important one is when hitting light finishing blows using a swage or dies or working stock down thin. When I am doing these blows where the hammer lightly bottoms out it hits then the next blow does not, so I only get every other blow hitting. When swaging smaller stock such as tong reins this really slows me down. If I am hitting heavier blows with the treadle down further even if I am bottoming on thinner stock there is not a problem. I tried drilling an extra 1/4" hole in chamfer 2 today but it does not seem to have made any improvement. Drilling that hole is supposed to improve control in light blows as it provides slightly more air to the bottom of the ram. But I am wondering if I have too much air at the bottom thus when I get a "bounce" at the bottom of the stroke it gets the ram a little higher and there is then too much air in the bottom, and I should be filling holes rather than drilling more. The manual says to fill holes if "Hammer falls away coming out of "High Swing"" I am not sure what "falling away" refers to as this is coming out of "High Swing".

The other issue I have is when using the hammer at "Full Work" the blows are too short so I have to ease up slightly to get maximum power. I wonder if the two problems are related but the second is not as important as I can just ease up slightly or put a thin shim under the treadle.

I am going to take the hammer apart again and try filling a couple of holes. I have drawings and manual for the hammer but I cannot find how many holes are drilled in chamfer 2 the manual says the # should be the as shown on the drawing. That is the only drawing I don't have is the one that shows me how many holes should be drilled in chamfer 2.

[forgemaster]

As for getting a hit one miss one blow when driving light, not something we have ever had with a massey clear space, happens heaps with the Alldays and also the 1cwt massey in slides but not the clear space.
As for the hammer starting to choke its self on full blow, check the condition of the packing on the hammer ram, we have gone to using Kevlar gland packing in this stuffing box. Other than that you need to learn how to pump the hammer up to get a longer blow when forging flat out. It is effected by pumping the pedal up and down in time to the hammer, telling the hammer to lift up when it is going up and to give a full blow as the ram is going down.
One other thing to check is that the hammer is running at the correct speed, we had this problem with the 1cwt in slides as it was going too slow, would'nt even generate enough blow to blow your nose.

[JNewman]

As for getting a hit one miss one blow when driving light, not something we have ever had with a massey clear space, happens heaps with the Alldays and also the 1cwt massey in slides but not the clear space.
As for the hammer starting to choke its self on full blow, check the condition of the packing on the hammer ram, we have gone to using Kevlar gland packing in this stuffing box. Other than that you need to learn how to pump the hammer up to get a longer blow when forging flat out. It is effected by pumping the pedal up and down in time to the hammer, telling the hammer to lift up when it is going up and to give a full blow as the ram is going down.
One other thing to check is that the hammer is running at the correct speed, we had this problem with the 1cwt in slides as it was going too slow, would'nt even generate enough blow to blow your nose.

Thanks for the reply Phil. I have done the pumping the hammer to get a full blow that is why I am not as concerned with that, as well I do not use the hammer flat out that much. I do have one job though that I have to pinch the end of a 3" wide piece of 434O down to nothing on taper dies where I really have to hit it hard. I will have to check the packing on the stuffing box although if that is bad I should be getting a lot of blowby shouldn't I? I also should check the speed, I may be a couple of rpm slow but I don't think I am that slow although I have had weak blows a few times when the belts got a little slack.

What was the problem in the Allday's? was the only problem with the slide hammer the speed?

[JNewman]

I knocked the plugs out and lowered the top part of the valve by .040" it was set .010 too high. When I first tried the hammer I didn't notice any change other than the tup took slightly longer to rise on start.
But when I got the forge hot and started forging, I think I get slightly fewer missed blows. The first blow also seems more controllable, till I got used to it I sometimes found the first blow was a harder blow. I also found that the fraction of a second longer that it takes the tup to return to the top is helpful if I ease off the treadle to move or flip the stock it means the idling is lower so it is easier to go back to light blows.
After I have a chance to use the hammer on some heavier stock to make sure there are no negative consequences to the adjustments I think I may tear the hammer apart again and try drilling one more adjustment hole in chamfer 2 to see if it completely solves the problem.

For those that are not familiar with the Massey valving here is a picture of the valve. I didn't get back far enough taking the picture to capture the whole thing but it shows most of it. Three of the check valves are visible in the picture.

[forgemaster]

The Alldays I think it is just in the nature of the beast, what with having no rings and no stuffing box, and a vacumn lift, it runs OK when it is hitting soft metal but if you are using swages and you are almost right down to size it will start to I suppose really bounce back up. On hot material it is good right down to thin. The Alldays also chokes itself if you don't just get into it right from the start, it will do dead blows if you bring it down gradually to start striking and you have to pump it for a few strokes to get it going to a full stroke. We have just learnt to live with the beast.
The 100 when I first installed it it was running way too slow, and it was giving a really dull dead blow, once I put a correct size correct speed motor on it it ran OK in that respect. It will still however give a miss then belt the job miss again etc if you are trying to drive light. We just lived with it, until we broke the piston rod, now we don't use it, and by that time we had installed the alldays, problem solved. I have even had that miss then belt problem with a 20cwt massey when I was working for a boss. As it was not my hammer, and we got into trouble if we tried any sort of maintainence ("you're here to work not bl---y well fix things, now put it back together and just get on with your job") I would just use another hammer if I need a lighter blow.

You could see how the packing is by putting the hammer in hold up and seeing how much air you get coming down the ram past the stuffing box/gland. If you've never dropped the gland, it may be wise to have a look at it anyway to see how the packing is. We take off the top die, lift the hammer up and sit it on a piece of bar about 10" long on end, turn the hammer, off loosen the gland nuts off,then using a fox wedge part the gland from the hammerso the gland drops to the nuts again. We then get the forklift put a blade either side of the ram to support the gland, remove the nuts and allow the gland to slide down the ram supported by the fork blades. Remove the forklift from under the gland, then use it to lift the ram up enough to remove the piece of bar, chain the ram up with a chain sling or such and the remove the gland from the bottom die to a bench. Installation is a reversal of removal. You may also benefit from checking the condition of the rings on the ram and the pump.
Surely John from Massey would be the man to give you the "good oil" for fixing this characteristic. Moonys 7 will also run wierd but I feel that is more of a problem of loose belts and him running it off a generator and the generator governer lagging behind the power demands of the hammer.

[nonjic]

Hi guys, just a couple of thoughts...

The valve portions need to be able to spin on the spindle (not locked up solid) if they are solid the hammer can go 'lumpy'

The top of the valve tube is stamped (either '0' or a + / - figure.) this is the height of the top of the valve in the 'full work' position.

I think I sent you the full valve setting manual John, so dont know how much more I can add than is written in there.

Check the valve springs are the correct weight (ill look up the spec for you), and the valve discs are flat, crack free and seating properly.

[JNewman]

Hi guys, just a couple of thoughts...

The valve portions need to be able to spin on the spindle (not locked up solid) if they are solid the hammer can go 'lumpy'

The top of the valve tube is stamped (either '0' or a + / - figure.) this is the height of the top of the valve in the 'full work' position.

I think I sent you the full valve setting manual John, so dont know how much more I can add than is written in there.

Check the valve springs are the correct weight (ill look up the spec for you), and the valve discs are flat, crack free and seating properly.

Thanks guys for the info. John you did send the valve setting guide and it has been a lot of help. The valve portions are able to spin and the discs are flat crack free and seating properly but the spring strength would be nice to have. How many holes in chamfer 2 does a 5cwt come with minimum? the manual refers me to the drawing and the only valve drawing I have does not show the # of holes. The one extra hole in chamfer 2 has helped a little and the only time I really have much problem is when I am doing finish passes swaging where swage dies are hitting or the hammer is hitting swages that have fully closed. There is no 0 or + or - on the top of my valve tube but I know it was replaced at least once by the previous owner I have the old one so I will check the old tube because I have it out in the shed. At full work the valve was .060" above the top of the tube so that was part of the reason that I felt I should lower the top portion of the valve .040. After I check the packing if it's fine I think I am going to try drilling another hole in chamfer 2.

Overall I am very happy with the hammer and really it is only when I am doing this really light work and the hammer is bottoming out that I have this problem. Swaging 1/2" stock on a 600lb hammer is a little overkill anyways. I think the time I spent on this has given me a better understanding of the hammer and the problem is getting better.

After spending almost two days reading manuals and tearing the Massey appart and putting it together multiple times, I decided to try doing my finishing swaging passes on my 100lb kinyon style hammer as the blows per minute are much faster anyways. I only got it properly set up with a decent air supply about 6 months ago after moving it to put the Massey in. That worked quite well for two reins until the pilot valve actuator rod came off the hammer. So then I was into another day of hammer teardown on that hammer, the bolts had come loose a few days before and because tightening those bolts require pulling the ram I had put off tightening them so they then broke off and I had to pull the ram anyways and then easy out the broken bolts. I think I will have to drill some holes in the tube so that I can tighten those bolts without tearing the hammer apart. I locktighted them and center punched around them to keep them in place, but I locktighted them last time too.

[forgemaster]

Hi All

As we have just replaced a turn of packing in our 5cwt and I have the spare packing sitting here with me now I figured I'd give the appropriate tech info for the packing that we now use.

It is made by a firm called James Walker (in Aust anyway) style is "folded tape rectangle", material is GHN/KC Proofed Kevlar,  size is 15mm (3 ply), James Walker part No. is FJFTRE0012K7

I know we need 2 lengths of 800mm long tape to replace the 2 runs of packing in our 5cwt (800mm allows for a little bit of a trim to suit).  Differnent size hammers will need a different length of course but the size should be the same.  If you have a lot of wear on the hammer rod or in the gland you could also consider 4 ply (still 15mm wide though)  This packing that we have just replaced (only 1 run needed replacing, the bottom run) has been in this hammer since Jan 2009 and this hammer cops a flogging almost every day.  The price I have been quoted is about $100.00 AUD per metre ex GST

Hope this info is of use to any Massey owners.

 

Phil

[iron woodrow]

thanks for that info phil! i will save that for when i need to do the packing on the #5 up here. (when i convince the mill that they dont need it due to it not working) ;)

[nonjic]

I supply the packing in 3 ply, or 4 ply in 15 mtr rolls (massively) cheaper than Walkers price Phil states above. We get it made up by a local company from Kevlar cloth, graphited. The 4 ply is something we have recently started doing for when things are a lot more worn than they should be !

 

Delivery around the planet is not that much. DHL will do it for about £ 25  /  £30 gbp anywhere :)