A second try at tongs.

[Robert Simmons]

Ok so here is my second try at making a pair of lightweight tongs. Here is one half ready for punching and forming.

I started with a 3/8ths bar and put two dents halfway through it with the corner of the anvil. Then I flattened out the pivot part of the tongs and then flipped 90 degrees to flatten out the jaws. I then bent the pivot and jaws to 45 degrees and then bent the jaws back 45 degrees. I have another side to do then drilling and riveting. This is my first real smith project that is more than just messing around. What do ya think?

One question I would have for some of the experienced smiths is how I can reduce the number of hammer marks and make a smoother surface. Is that just a matter of practice?

[John B]

Ok so here is my second try at making a pair of lightweight tongs. Here is one half ready for punching and forming.

I started with a 3/8ths bar and put two dents halfway through it with the corner of the anvil. Then I flattened out the pivot part of the tongs and then flipped 90 degrees to flatten out the jaws. I then bent the pivot and jaws to 45 degrees and then bent the jaws back 45 degrees. I have another side to do then drilling and riveting. This is my first real smith project that is more than just messing around. What do ya think?

One question I would have for some of the experienced smiths is how I can reduce the number of hammer marks and make a smoother surface. Is that just a matter of practice?

Hi Robert, looking better than the last pair. I suggest looking to your method, I posted stages on your previous post that may help.

With regard to the hammer marks, it is a matter of hammer control, which is down to practicing, but in this case, if you had followed the sequence I illustrated, you would have had a different appearance.

By notching the bar first, and then trying to form the boss area you are having to have repeated blows on exactly the same area, and any small discrepancy in targetting this area will result in the hammermarks you see there

You have to learn to use your available tools to their best advantage, or even make tools to assist in achieving what you want to do.

By flattening this area over the edge of the anvil



you will get the flat area you need for the beginning of the boss, which then gives a smoother transition to start the reins.

Even if you are not adopting the sequence I illustrated, you are on the right path, just keep questioning why this problem has occured, and how can I put it right.

In fact think ahead of yourself here, when you draw the hammer marked area down you will eliminate a lot if not all of these dings.

From the picture, it would appear your hammer's face has quite a sharp corner, you could consider dressing this off slightly.

Always be aware of the relationship of your hammer face to the anvil face, the space between them is what is reproduced on your work, hold the hammer tilted down and you will put in the crescent shapes produced pointing towards you, tilt it up and the crescent marks are facing away from you.

This is why your stance and relationship to the anvil is important, when you bring the hammer down it should hit parallel to the anvils face. From you pictures it looks as if you are about there, but just check.

Good luck as you continue, you will get there.

[fciron]

Robert,

First, congratulations on forging things.

Second, there are reasons that certain patterns and techniques become the standard, in tong making as well as burners. It is because many people have used them successfully over a long time. In the case of tongs, there are literally thousands of years of practice bringing us to this point. I would strongly suggest trying the instructions John B posted first and then modifying them to suit your tools and equipment rather than trying to invent new techniques from whole cloth.

(Unless you are trying to reproduce the method in Gearhart's video that YoungDylan posted, in which case I recant my rant and point out that that's a power hammer and much bigger stock with drawn reins.)

In answer to your actual question: There are a lot of fairly subtle things happening in tongs, for instance the transition from the pivot area to the jaws. The jaws should come right out of the pivot area at full size, in John B's picture he has the tongs over the edge of the anvil at an angle so that the jaw thickness fades back into the pivot. Your tong jaw is on the end of a tiny square made of those two parts smallest dimensions. This part will bend very quickly in use. The stresses are greatest close to the pivot point and the base of the jaw is where most tongs break.

It looks as though you have the basic geometry right, if anything it's exaggerated. It looks like your jaws will be 1-1/2" apart once the tongs are assembled.

The method I know that is closest to what you are doing is to bend the S curve first (the 45 degree bends that you did last) and then lay the bar over a small block (1"wide) and flatten the entire pivot area at once. This leaves the stock full size where it comes out of the pivot and gives clean shoulders and a nice flat bearing surface for the eye.

[pkrankow]

Use a file to clean up the mating surfaces after punching and before assembly.

Consider dressing your hammer face to make a smooth transition across the edge and face, I suspect you are using an inexpensive big box store hammer.

Phil

[Robert Simmons]

Second, there are reasons that certain patterns and techniques become the standard, in tong making as well as burners. It is because many people have used them successfully over a long time. In the case of tongs, there are literally thousands of years of practice bringing us to this point. I would strongly suggest trying the instructions John B posted first and then modifying them to suit your tools and equipment rather than trying to invent new techniques from whole cloth.

Thanks for the great tips and advice. As for the above comment, I was generally following a pattern on the internet at anvilfire. But I have two problems right now. First of all, I dont have the correct stock that I need to do it exactly as shown and finances are a little thin right now as I ended up spending way too much getting the forge up. When I get paid on the 25th I intend to get some more stock to make it easier. As it is, all I have is 1/4inch round, 3/8ths square and a bunch of tubing and sheet. So I am merely trying to improvise with what i have knowing I will mess up the first few times badly. Perhaps with the stock I have, I should be trying something else. I tried to do upset on the 1/4 inch rod to make rivets or nails but I ended up just bending the entire rod unfortunately.

I am just a newbie so I figure I will botch several things before I get something good.

Use a file to clean up the mating surfaces after punching and before assembly.

Consider dressing your hammer face to make a smooth transition across the edge and face, I suspect you are using an inexpensive big box store hammer.

Phil

Inexpensive hammer but not big box store, it is a forging hammer. A farrier's hammer. I will do some reading on how to dress it.

As for hammer control, can you be more specific? Do you mean just accuracy in hitting or is there some other aspect I could focus on. I read in a book on blacksmithing that pounding roofing nails into a board can help refine control. Do you agree with that ?

[pkrankow]

As for hammer control, can you be more specific? Do you mean just accuracy in hitting or is there some other aspect I could focus on. I read in a book on blacksmithing that pounding roofing nails into a board can help refine control. Do you agree with that ?

There are some who say hit a piece of wood and make sure your marks are full circles and not half moons.

Basically your hammer has to hit:
where you want it to
in the direction you intend it to
with the face or peen in the desired position

Force in the blow is less important and will come with practice.
Phil

[John B]

Thanks for the great tips and advice. As for the above comment, I was generally following a pattern on the internet at anvilfire. But I have two problems right now. First of all, I dont have the correct stock that I need to do it exactly as shown and finances are a little thin right now as I ended up spending way too much getting the forge up. When I get paid on the 25th I intend to get some more stock to make it easier. As it is, all I have is 1/4inch round, 3/8ths square and a bunch of tubing and sheet. So I am merely trying to improvise with what i have knowing I will mess up the first few times badly. Perhaps with the stock I have, I should be trying something else. I tried to do upset on the 1/4 inch rod to make rivets or nails but I ended up just bending the entire rod unfortunately.

I am just a newbie so I figure I will botch several things before I get something good.



Inexpensive hammer but not big box store, it is a forging hammer. A farrier's hammer. I will do some reading on how to dress it.

As for hammer control, can you be more specific? Do you mean just accuracy in hitting or is there some other aspect I could focus on. I read in a book on blacksmithing that pounding roofing nails into a board can help refine control. Do you agree with that ?

Hi Robert, If you look back to your reference point on anvilfire, I tend to think they were using flat bar as opposed to the square you were using, that way they don't need to flatten the boss area.

The method I put on the other posting is for square material, the 3/8" square you have should work OK to produce a small pair of tongs that would be suitable for your 1/4"stock or sheet or tube.


Upsetting rod of 1/4" diameter is always going to be difficult due to the size.

Rivet heads and nail heads are usually made in conjunction with some tooling, nails seem to be seen as good practice and your 1/4" rod should be ideal for that, You will easily find Vids on nailmaking on you tube that show you various ways to do them.

Dressing the hammer should be done very slowly, just a little at a time, you can always take more off, but difficult to remedy if you go too far. Personally I don't like too big a chamfered edge as it means I cannot produce a square shoulder by just using the hammer and anvil (eg Like when making a tenon)

Hammer control, if you just hammer onto some wood on your anvil and examine the shapes left, they will tell you a lot about your hammering, draw some rings slightly larger than your hammers face on say a 1" thick plank and try to hit them a number of times inside the ring, single blows will indicate if you are striking parallel to your anvil or not, a crescent shape with the ends pointing away from you would indicate you are lower than you need to be, conversly if the crescent point are towards you, you are too high, adjust the height of your anvil accordingly,

When you are comfortable with this, star to put points on your bits of solid metal, forge a square taper first, then take the corners off to form an octagon, then you take te corners off again until the stock is round, also try producing different length/angle tapers, you can then use thes to make hooks, drive in hooks, kebab skewers or whatever you fancy.

Whatever you do have fun and enjoy it, there is no substitute for hands on experience, try to see or link up with others and watch the way they work, not just how they hit the metal, but their stance in relation to the anvil, how they hold the hammer, how they swing it, Then decide if what you see will help you, and is it safe to do.

Unfortunately when you first start out, you always assume others are more knowledgable than yourself on things, so be careful and make up your own mind as how their methods can benefit you. I have seen highly respected 'smiths using very dubious unsafe methods/tools.

[peacock]

John B and the other Phil have given you good advice. In addtion to hammer control you also need to control the stock on the anvil. When you are tring to form a shoulder as in tong makeing over thr edge of the anvil you must also be able to hold the stock in exactly the same spot till the shoulder is fully formed. Some tips to do this try to get a notch established on the first blow, then slow down make sure to return the stock to the same place don't try to hurry the second blow use your feel and sight to get it in the correct spot before you hit it again. It will take some time and a few more heats but you will soon learn and in the end this will speed you up. Also remember the anvil does the best work, the side on the anvil will have less marks and be flater and more true than the hammer side keep this in mind when you look at your work and you will see what I am talking about. Don't gett discouraged tongs are a very hard thing to make even for some experienced smiths. By the way I always use the side against the anvil for the insideof the hinge it is much easier to get it flat. Phil

[ofafeather]

For interested parties (like me!) here is a link to John's post in the other thread with his great step-by-step directions.

Thanks, John!

[fciron]

As for the above comment, I was generally following a pattern on the internet at anvilfire.

My apologies for jumping on you there. I hereby recant my rant.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Try this out. This is probably the best forging exercise that you could do. Once you understand it and canexecute it you can do it in one heat also.
http://picasaweb.google.com/brianbrazealblacksmith/TongBlank
http://picasaweb.google.com/brianbrazealblacksmith/TongBlankInClay

[double_edge2]

Use a file to clean up the mating surfaces after punching and before assembly.

*****Consider dressing your hammer face to make a smooth transition across the edge and face*****,


I suspect you are using an inexpensive big box store hammer.

Phil

yep, good stuff. and make more.

[youngdylan]

Try this out. This is probably the best forging exercise that you could do. Once you understand it and canexecute it you can do it in one heat also.
http://picasaweb.goo...smith/TongBlank
http://picasaweb.goo...TongBlankInClay

Thats some pretty impressive videos there Brian, you really are a human power hammer.

[Toreus]

Looking good!

I've been making tong blanks myself, and I've been having that same problem with hammer marks, so thanks everyone for the tips!