Making tongs

[Geoff]

Made a small pair of tongs today. Used http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/hm_tongs/index.htm as the starting idea.
I used 8mmx10mm stock cut a piece off and welded it to the reign. I used high amps so that I got good penetration. Then I forged to shape, drilled and riveted.



Lightweight tongs for helping making rose buds.

[Robert Simmons]

[quote name='Geoff' date='25 July 2010 - 03:25 AM' I used 8mmx10mm stock cut a piece off and welded it to the reign. I used high amps so that I got good penetration. Then I forged to shape, drilled and riveted.

[Sam Thompson]

As far as I know it's the accepted wisdom never to use tongs with any sort of weld under a power hammer. I've always assumed that is because of weakness.

[youngdylan]

As far as I know it's the accepted wisdom never to use tongs with any sort of weld under a power hammer. I've always assumed that is because of weakness.

Picture shows a page from Lillico's book on power hammer tooling. Just about universally regarded as the bible on the subject , has been since 1930. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't one of the pictures halfway down show a weld. That said he does say "this method should only be used when no steam hammer is available". Kinda sounds like, to me, he means no steam hammer to make them.

[Sam Thompson]

Well, if no steam hammer was available to make them then then perhaps we can assume that there still won't be one when it comes to using them!
I've had electrically welded tongs break up under a PH, but never a forge weld (at least not catastrophically).

[youngdylan]

Well, if no steam hammer was available to make them then then perhaps we can assume that there still won't be one when it comes to using them!

That would be a bit rum for a book thats pretty much all about power techniques and tooling.

[fciron]

I've seen plenty of broken tongs with no welds in them at all and several pairs with welded reins that broke elsewhere. Generally, it's the eye to jaw area that is weak.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

I took a class with Dennis Manning one week ago here in Palmer Ak. What an eye opener. I have tons of practice ahead of me. We also made some tools to make the tongs easier to finish. One being a rivet set, both bottom and top. Learned how to properly punch and drift the boss for maximum strength. Saw how to make several types of jaws. I know this is not an easy thing to do, making tongs. I have made a few using the twist method and they never have turned out well. Making tongs isn't an easy thing to do well. So I bought a few so I could work with some good tongs while I was making bad tongs, until I can make good tongs.

[double_edge2]

I took a class with Dennis Manning one week ago here in Palmer Ak. What an eye opener. I have tons of practice ahead of me. We also made some tools to make the tongs easier to finish. One being a rivet set, both bottom and top. Learned how to properly punch and drift the boss for maximum strength. Saw how to make several types of jaws. I know this is not an easy thing to do, making tongs. I have made a few using the twist method and they never have turned out well. Making tongs isn't an easy thing to do well. So I bought a few so I could work with some good tongs while I was making bad tongs, until I can make good tongs.

i never have a prob with the twist method, very usefull and quick to make tongs, i stock 25x10 for them and make most of my general tongs out of the method. I did find if you try to hide the twist too hard you end up with a weaker jaw to hinge transition, so now i dont try. I also dont notch to half way on the jaw side, say 2/5 of the way using the edge of the anvil, right heat to twist, re heat to seat, then leave it. I jave a pair of the same for 30.5mm bar x 200mm and have had no troubles yet. i think alot of the proportion trouble is from using a smaller or too small a stock for this method.

[Sam Thompson]

That would be a bit rum for a book thats pretty much all about power techniques and tooling.

He does mention that the method should only be used if none was available.

[youngdylan]

He does mention that the method should only be used if none was available.

so what's the book for then?

[Sam Thompson]

It's so we all know how to make reversing levers and knock-offs,; the industrial equivalents of coracles and morris-dancing.

[fciron]

It's so we all know how to make reversing levers and knock-offs,; the industrial equivalents of coracles and morris-dancing.

You're giving Lillico too much credit; even Americans like me know that there are still morris-dancers. No one has ever asked me to make a knock-off and I live near mining country. (Actually, I've been frequently asked to make another kind of knock off.)

By you're own argument (Lillico is as out of date as coracles.), we might also be able to ignore his advice about not welding tong reins? :unsure:

[Sam Thompson]

I don't know why I'm getting all this stick! I only mentioned what I was told as a lad (mind you I'm pretty gullible; for years I believed my mother when she told me that 'ladies can't f**t')
If any one else posts a H&S concern everyone nods sagely. :P

[double_edge2]

I took a class with Dennis Manning one week ago here in Palmer Ak. What an eye opener. I have tons of practice ahead of me. We also made some tools to make the tongs easier to finish. One being a rivet set, both bottom and top. Learned how to properly punch and drift the boss for maximum strength. Saw how to make several types of jaws. I know this is not an easy thing to do, making tongs. I have made a few using the twist method and they never have turned out well. Making tongs isn't an easy thing to do well. So I bought a few so I could work with some good tongs while I was making bad tongs, until I can make good tongs.

and i know what ypou mean about the rivet backing, makes the job instantly easy by having the right tools.

[fciron]

I don't know why I'm getting all this stick! I only mentioned what I was told as a lad (mind you I'm pretty gullible; for years I believed my mother when she told me that 'ladies can't f**t')
If any one else posts a H&S concern everyone nods sagely.

Everyone jumped in to take the mickey out of morris-dancers.

[youngdylan]

It's so we all know how to make reversing levers and knock-offs,; the industrial equivalents of coracles and morris-dancing.

Look further Sam, see past the steam engine, read between the lines, study the why not the how, open the mind ....... the book has a WEALTH of information. I constantly refer to it for inspiration

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

You're giving Lillico too much credit; even Americans like me know that there are still morris-dancers. No one has ever asked me to make a knock-off and I live near mining country. (Actually, I've been frequently asked to make another kind of knock off.)

By you're own argument (Lillico is as out of date as coracles.), we might also be able to ignore his advice about not welding tong reins?

I've learned more from Lillico than ANY other book I have. Like David said "study the why not the how, open the mind". I never made hardly anything shown, but I learned a lot about developing shapes in hot iron in ways not shown in any other book. Helps you understand the concept of constant volume forging and that what you start with need not have any semblance to the finished part. My "Bible".

[fciron]

I've learned more from Lillico than ANY other book I have. Like David said "study the why not the how, open the mind". I never made hardly anything shown, but I learned a lot about developing shapes in hot iron in ways not shown in any other book. Helps you understand the concept of constant volume forging and that what you start with need not have any semblance to the finished part. My "Bible".

Bill Gichner told me it was the best book of its kind. I'm not gonna argue with him or you.

I still peruse my copy occasionally. I completely agree that the concept of constant volume and the way he develops forms are eye openers. I have even used some of the mystery machine parts to make my own found objects.

I'll just sit here quietly and wait for the morris-dancers to demand an apology.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

and i know what ypou mean about the rivet backing, makes the job instantly easy by having the right tools.

Yes your exactly right DE 2. Another tool he showed us out to make was a triangle punch out of spring steel. Used to punch cuts into the hole so when you set the rivet it locks in, and doesn't move on that side anymore. So in essence the rivet is fixed. The side of the jaws that moves is the side that is up. If that makes sense. The side of the reigns that is going down when you open your hand. So the rivet really doesn't move at all. Just the one side of the tong.

[eric sprado]

OKay: Everybody is talking about "Lillico's Book" but nobody is saying THE NAME OF IT!!!!! Can't look for it if I don't have title. Thanks, Eric S.

[Jura T]

OKay: Everybody is talking about "Lillico's Book" but nobody is saying THE NAME OF IT!!!!!

It's "The Blacksmith's Manual Illustrated". You can find the PDF's here: http://www.hct.ac.uk/Downloads/craftpublications.html

Can't look for it if I don't have title.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lillico+blacksmith+book :P

[Sam Thompson]

I agree entirely about Lillico, the specific nature of the work is unimportant... He uses examples to show an entire way of thinking.

[double_edge2]

Made a small pair of tongs today. Used http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/hm_tongs/index.htm as the starting idea.
I used 8mmx10mm stock cut a piece off and welded it to the reign. I used high amps so that I got good penetration. Then I forged to shape, drilled and riveted.

...and sorry, your tongs look good and strong. unless you are chasing an effect or a look/finnish, if they hold and last, who cares how you made them. i helped with a demo on the gold coast, where a guy had made in a similar way, a stainless set. looked good to me, did the job,....and i wanted them......lol. is it wrong to like what other make?.....lol. and i often tack instead of wire or hold for forge welding. make it very easy. i find stick welds are easy to do lots with in the forge.

[Frank Turley]

An arc weld should be OK on a small hand-held pair of tongs, especially if the weld is normalized or stress relieved.

I have forge welded reins on many pairs of hand-held tongs. The face of the scarf is normally on the 2nd shoulder side of a three shouldered jaw. The reason; the forge weld is stronger in tension that way than if the weld was "on top." The scarf is normally on the drawn stub of the rein about 3½" behind the last shoulder.

Some smiths completely draw the reins without welding. Francis Whitaker told the that he always did so.

To my knowledge, large industrial tongs are never welded, neither forge, arc, nor gas. They are totally forged from a respectable alloy steel. Some of the old ones were of high carbon steel. Most often the reins are a long flat taper in width, the thickness staying the same. Sometimes, the reins are quarter round or half round on the edges. A welded rein in large, industrial use would be an accident waiting to happen.

The above mentioned triangle tool used to keep one rivet head in a fixed position is often helpful in keeping tongs from freezing in one position. We don't know the history of old tongs. For all we know, they might have been run over by a jeep. A pair may occasionally freeze, lock up. Then we usually bang them against the anvil until they loosen. Later on, they freeze again. I think that sometimes a rivet will get bent and in its random rotation, it hits an area the locks the tongs in position. When I have a pair of tongs like that, I take them apart and replace with a new rivet, one where the head on one side can't move.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools