forging long tapers

[youngdylan]

Recently had to do a batch of long tapers; 28mm down to 5mm over 1100m length. Easliy done in one main and two quick reheats using my Anyang 40kg and a 600mm long gas forge.

Thing is, as I was doing them I realised I was hardly using any of the hammers full power. There was a lot of tippy tippy tap tipping going one as I moved the bar back and forth. Me? I always like to beast things, push machines to their limit ......thats what industrial machines are designed to do all day long. My time is much more precious than treating the machine like an old woman. Works great on lathes and mills, max cutter speed, max cut depth, plenty of coolant, just ease up for the final finishing cuts.

Kinda wondering if there's an equivalent for doing long tapers, or indeed how others do them.

I do the "leave a little bit at the end and come back to it" method.

Forge out the bulk of the taper but leave about a 20/25mm long bit untouched on the end (in the case above taper), as the bar goes to red I can beast away around the transition from stock bar to taper, other than that its a lot of mind numbing tip tapping. Quick reheat to forge out the untoched bit, quick reheat to blend in the two stages.

Suggestions?

[bigfootnampa]

Well you are working some pretty fine sections there (on the small ends anyway). Your Anyang is powerful enough to handle around 2 1/2" to 3" stock...?? if you stomp on that taper where it's only 1/4" diameter it will be about the thickness of tin foil in one hit!!??!! Be thankful that you have a nice machine that can be used in such a delicate way. Personally I use my hand hammer quite a bit when I do smaller tapers (like nails or drive hooks), just cause I have an Anyang doesn't mean I have to use it for everything.

That said when I do very long tapers (which I do often, though maybe not as long as these) I tend to point my small end and then spin the rod as I hammer sort of extruding the taper from the parent stock with just a little hand hammering to knock off high or rough spots left to do (I will try to get most of this at the end of heats and may finish cold). I rough taper square for a short length and then octagonalize it and spin smoothing and blending the taper... then to the anvil and hand hammer for straightening and more fine finishing. Now back to the fire... my forge is coal and shorter heats are common and easy and I make more of them than you do. Trying to work too much length can be bad as the grain growth devil raises his head and too much hot metal hanging off the dies can lead to lots of stress problems when combined with the jarring from the hammer. I do try to work fast as this is good for my metal grain wise and the Anyang preserves the heat by warming the metal from the hammer action (this is another reason for shorter heats... if I try to work a longer length I lose some of the hammer heat effect and often actually get LESS work done).

Well practice is the real answer and you will get more skillful as you do more similar tapers but maybe some of this will help you think about subtle ways to improve your techniques. Still I gotta say when you do an 1100m taper in three heats... not TOO bad (I think maybe you meant 1100mm... still not so bad)!

[youngdylan]

Well you are working some pretty fine sections there (on the small ends anyway). Your Anyang is powerful enough to handle around 2 1/2" to 3" stock...?? if you stomp on that taper where it's only 1/4" diameter it will be about the thickness of tin foil in one hit!!??!! Be thankful that you have a nice machine that can be used in such a delicate way. Personally I use my hand hammer quite a bit when I do smaller tapers (like nails or drive hooks), just cause I have an Anyang doesn't mean I have to use it for everything.

That said when I do very long tapers (which I do often, though maybe not as long as these) I tend to point my small end and then spin the rod as I hammer sort of extruding the taper from the parent stock with just a little hand hammering to knock off high or rough spots left to do (I will try to get most of this at the end of heats and may finish cold). I rough taper square for a short length and then octagonalize it and spin smoothing and blending the taper... then to the anvil and hand hammer for straightening and more fine finishing. Now back to the fire... my forge is coal and shorter heats are common and easy and I make more of them than you do. Trying to work too much length can be bad as the grain growth devil raises his head and too much hot metal hanging off the dies can lead to lots of stress problems when combined with the jarring from the hammer. I do try to work fast as this is good for my metal grain wise and the Anyang preserves the heat by warming the metal from the hammer action (this is another reason for shorter heats... if I try to work a longer length I lose some of the hammer heat effect and often actually get LESS work done).

Well practice is the real answer and you will get more skillful as you do more similar tapers but maybe some of this will help you think about subtle ways to improve your techniques. Still I gotta say when you do an 1100m taper in three heats... not TOO bad (I think maybe you meant 1100mm... still not so bad)!

Thanks for that big foot. Yeah it's 3 heats and 1100mm but remember I can heat 600mm of parent stock upto bright yellow all over if needed. Vast bulk of the work is done in the first heat. Because the parent stock starts as 28mm there's alot of heat there and thick sections hold their heat for a long time. There's lots and lots of 1/4 strenght ( ish) blows working the bar back and forwards .... this is the mind numbing bit I hate doing, gives me leg ache working this lenghth for the length of time of this first heat (with my treadle arrangement). As the heat goes I beast the thick end were its red and use strong blow to "reheat" the cooling thin end back to yellow. Next 2 heats are much less work and time.

As you say there are problems with droop working long heats, Grain growth doesn't concern me much; my work is all ornamental.

Kinda wondering if a lighter faster hammer might be the thing for this scale of taper; I kinda like long elegant tapers with organic work

[youngdylan]

.

[nonjic]

Kinda wondering if a lighter faster hammer might be the thing for this scale of taper

go on, you know you want to............

Ive got an alldays and onions 1 cwt (one piece) in stock, a massey 1cwt 'with slides' (again a one piece)and have got 'dibs' on another Massey 2 cwt 'clear space' , you should pop round sometime!

[youngdylan]

go on, you know you want to............

Ive got an alldays and onions 1 cwt (one piece) in stock, a massey 1cwt 'with slides' (again a one piece)and have got 'dibs' on another Massey 2 cwt 'clear space' , you should pop round sometime!

I'm still in that shoebox John .... but thinking ahead. I did actually look at a "usefull" workshop on Brighton Rd Ind.Est. (near the pyramid roundabout) but turned out there was no 3 phase (was told there was). Looks like I'm gonna be booked with work (some not very interesting, more or less cut and weld) till Xmass so it'll be next year before I move. If the clearspace is still ther I'd be very interested

[nonjic]

hopefully the hammers will all be sold

There will allways be new stuff coming in though !

How big a shop are you looking for? I can keep my ear to the ground for ya

[nonjic]

oh, sorry for the thread hi-jack by the way....

The only thing I can think of to speed up the taper job would be to have dies with some slight radi cut into them so you are working a slightly larger area of the bar surface with each strike of the hammer.

(Ill have to have a think how this would work over a long taper, It might be you could have, say 3 different radi cut in the die blocks, with the largest in the middle where the heavy work is done. )

[youngdylan]

hopefully the hammers will all be sold

There will allways be new stuff coming in though !

How big a shop are you looking for? I can keep my ear to the ground for ya

1500 sq ft ish maybe down to 1000, concrete floor, high eves (v. important), good sized acess door, neighbours that can tolerate the hammers (this seems to be the limiting factor in my search), preferably max 1/2 hour travelling from home (Chorlton), not near a housing estate full of hoodies and scroats .......

[bigfootnampa]

gives me leg ache working this lenghth for the length of time of this first heat (with my treadle arrangement).

Perhaps it would help to fit a wooden pedal to the treadle bar? It could be removable when not needed. Might lower your leg position and give you a more comfortable surface to press against.

Kinda wondering if a lighter faster hammer might be the thing for this scale of taper; I kinda like long elegant tapers with organic work

Could be, my Anyang is a 20 pound (about 10kg). I think the same speed as yours though. A lovely tool!! When I saw the 20 pound Anyang demoed at the BAM conference in April of 2009 Bill Moffet tried it out (I think it may have been his first try with such a tool) and forged a 1" rod with a 12" heat into a 36" taper with very fine tip and a few decorative bulbs in a single heat! I thought he could've kept going for a bit as he still had some red heat! That was where I suddenly developed a yearning for this tool... and that moment was pivotal. Bill is a skilled smith I just don't think he has much experience with power hammers... He won the hand-forging contest at the BAM conference this last April.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

1500 sq ft ish maybe down to 1000, concrete floor, high eves (v. important), good sized acess door, neighbours that can tolerate the hammers (this seems to be the limiting factor in my search), preferably max 1/2 hour travelling from home (Chorlton), not near a housing estate full of hoodies and scroats .......

Sounds like the "low rent district" to me. :P

[Sam Salvati]

start at the end, forge it to the diameter of your desired finished size, then work your way back up, this is how I was taught, let's me go full throttle on a 165 pound say Mak too for a good part of the process. I also go from light on the throttle to pedal to the metal from the fattest part of the taper to the end.

[Spears]

start at the end, forge it to the diameter of your desired finished size, then work your way back up, this is how I was taught, let's me go full throttle on a 165 pound say Mak too for a good part of the process. I also go from light on the throttle to pedal to the metal from the fattest part of the taper to the end.

Thank you for the easy to understand description Sam. The first time I used a power hammer is when I finished building mine. I haven't yet been able to venture out of my world and watch some of you folks do some of this stuff. I've had to learn alot on my own from reading and watching videos along with trial and error. The brief descriptions of the basics have helped me a lot. Can't wait to forge this weekend. Thanks, Spears

[nuge]

Ever try a tapered v-block? Won't get rid of all the tippy taps but will put you further on down the road.

[youngdylan]

Ever try a tapered v-block? Won't get rid of all the tippy taps but will put you further on down the road.

Thanks Nuge I'll give it a try. I do use v blocks to forge pipe but not a tapered one. One a related note has any one used a "swiveling die" or plate on the lower die that adapts to the rough forged taper and does the finishing? Maybe even with a V groove in it.

[nuge]

Not sure if v blocks would be that much quicker anyway, you still need your "eye" more than anything. Maybe you just need to embrace your gentler side. It's so sweet that something so big can hit so soft.

Mmmmm, pipe--

Heres a shot of how I do tapered v blocks for pipe. The saw is set to cut 45 degrees. The pieces mate to make one block.

[Sam Salvati]

Thanks Nuge I'll give it a try. I do use v blocks to forge pipe but not a tapered one. One a related note has any one used a "swiveling die" or plate on the lower die that adapts to the rough forged taper and does the finishing? Maybe even with a V groove in it.

YEs INDEED!!!! They are one of the best tools ever invented!!!!!!! No V groove needed, even for square tapers.

[youngdylan]

Not sure if v blocks would be that much quicker anyway, you still need your "eye" more than anything. Maybe you just need to embrace your gentler side. It's so sweet that something so big can hit so soft.

.

With you on that. but it would be good to speed it all up. With long tapers I can get real leg/foot ache stretching to hold the work and use the treadle. I've starting using a foot rest as per john Larsons Ironkiss. Sure cuts down on aching balls of feet.

[youngdylan]

YEs INDEED!!!! They are one of the best tools ever invented!!!!!!! No V groove needed, even for square tapers.

Got any pictures Sam?

[Sam Salvati]

You bet

Pictured here in use on Bruce Ringier's Fairbanks by Dick

http://www.pet10gill.org/njba/brmeet/br04.htm

The plate pivots on the axle which sets on the die.

My boss made his to orient lengthwise on the dies instead of crossways.

[nuge]

Can't wait to make that tooling.


xxxx, Sam, you got some links. How about sharing your bookmarks??? B)

[youngdylan]

You bet

Pictured here in use on Bruce Ringier's Fairbanks by Dick

http://www.pet10gill...brmeet/br04.htm

The plate pivots on the axle which sets on the die.

My boss made his to orient lengthwise on the dies instead of crossways.

Thanks Sam, one more tool for me to make.

[Dick L.]

Great photos Sam ! Bet the hand wheel in the last photo is handy on that post vise.

Dick

[AndrewOC]

I 'offsided' when making a newel post. It was a long square taper about 900mm long, also about 40mm at the big end and 25mm at the small end.
The corners were also knocked in.
We used two of us, one on the bar and me on a 'round-back' or 'rocker' block. Alot depended on a good roughing out. Sorry i don't have a pic.
regards,
AndrewOC

[youngdylan]

I 'offsided' when making a newel post. It was a long square taper about 900mm long, also about 40mm at the big end and 25mm at the small end.
The corners were also knocked in.
We used two of us, one on the bar and me on a 'round-back' or 'rocker' block. Alot depended on a good roughing out. Sorry i don't have a pic.
regards,
AndrewOC

We possible have different terms over here. What is offsided? Is the round back a flatter tool flat on one side, curved on the other?