Sheaths

[Candidquality]

I see several mention sheaths as a side note to their projects without actually delving into how or what designs they use to create them. I'm building a sheath for what will hopefully be my first dagger(rr spikes not withstanding). And i'm curious as to how others here have handled it. I've taken a small piece of Mohagony scrap and bandsaw cut it in two. I plan on hollowing out the center of each piece with small rasps and then joining them. I will then take some thin leather and after some engraving inverting it to stich. Then wet and fold so the engraving is again on the outside and slipping it over my 2 piece wooden part. It should then shrink as it dries, securing the 2 peices. I have never looked at sheath design but for some reason this method seemed most logical. Has anyone else here ever used a similar method? If so what do i need to watch out for the most.

Pics will follow as progress is made.

[Rich Hale]

Making sheaths is a really nice part of my knife work. One of the easiest ways to see what you like is to look at everything you can. Gun shows are everywhere and usually have examples you can touch and feel. Knife shows are farther between but are even better. Tandy leather used to have some kits for knife sheaths. TAke a look at the wooden sheaths. Woody has posted recent pics. As you mentioned some leather sheaths are lined with wood or metal. I make mine from heavy cowhide and stitch by hand. Big item here is to put one or more layers between the outer pieces so the cutting edge does not cut the thread. Look at everything you can. Good luck

[metalmaster1766]

a Blue Print on sheath making would be a great idea for someone, id love to know how they are made, im sure i could cut and stitch one together, what i would like to know is how you make the designs in the leather

Ron

[Graham Fredeen]

Candidquality I have done scabbards like the one you are descirbing. And you have the process down almost exactly. You start with your wood stock for the core, split it, then chisel and carve out the inside to fit the blade exactly, glue the pieces back together, sand and shape it to the desired finished shape, polyurethane, reverse stitch the leather, then cover it with the leather, wetting and applying, then wraping the leather to ensure good shrinkage.
Some things I would recomend would be to first (if you arent planning on doing this already) is wait to carve out the core wood until you have the finished blade which will go with the sheath (couldnt tell if you were trying to do the scabbard before the blade or not from your wording). This way you can fit the sheath exactly to the blade with out excessive space which results in the blade being too lose, or the opposite problem of the blade being too large for the sheath and not fitting in, being too tight, which often results in ruining the blade finish and edge. Its easier to tailor the scabbard to the blade than trying to fit the blade to the scabbard (which I have never heard of anyone doing anyways).
Another thing I would recomend is to treat the wood with some sort of polyurethane, lacquer, or other water proofing product to help protect the wood core from the moisture of the wet leather in shrinking, and any other moisture which may be trapped or find its way to the wood, potentially causing problems down the road.
And Deffinatly use the thiner leathers, the thicker leathers dont stitch easily, leaving a huge bump where the seam is, they arent really flexable enough to reverse, and they wont shrink very much in comparison to the thinner leathers. I dont know if it would be better to do the leather tooling before or after putting the leather on the core. It would be easier to do before, but the shrinking process might distort/remove some of the tooling, not exactly sure though, I havent tried anything like that yet, but something to think about none the less.
The other thing you might want to consider is once the leather is wet and applied to the wood, it is often necessary to wrap something tightly around it to ensure a good shrink and fit. Usually one can use string or heavy cord, the problem with that is that it will often leave imprints in the leather, but some wider strips of cloth instead would probably eliminate that issue. You can also do a bit of leather shrinking with a heat gun, but you must be careful, you can easily burn the leather, harden it to the point of cracking, you can burn your wood core underneath, etc. Its best to go with the water method in my opinion.

Hope this helps a bit.

~The Lord Tar Aderion~

[Candidquality]

Rich Hale:
Thanks I will try to take a look this next weekend at the local Forgefest. I have a feeling I'll have to spend a week documenting ideas after it. I love meetings.

TarAlderion:
Thanks, Actually that is a great help. I already have the blade finished and know well where the rest of the parts will fit. I was actualy thinking about rasping a small "v" notch in the side where the stiching would be to keep it from bulging.
I would prefer not trying to protect with a polyurethane or another chemical if possible. but i had wondered about the wood being protected. I would like to do somethign a bit less modern if posible. anyone know what that might be? I was thinking about soaking in a lemon oil, then cleaning the outside and applying a beeswax coat. I'd like to do this on the inside and outside, but not sure how well a glue would work after. I have a feeling that the leather alone would be anough to hold it together properly and I wouldn't need a glue, but then again, i'd prefer to be safe. This piece will be for my own amusement only, so luckily I can try several things to see what works. I was hoping to get a method down well enough to make a second set for the local meeting next week. But i'm probably dreaming.
Is there any method to the choice of wood being used if it's being covered by leather anyway?

How about a liner for the inside of the wood. Perhaps some 8000 grit cloth? I had always thought about making an insert that would be able to sharpen the blade if needed(not well, but enough to get you to a point where you could wait till later and still be usefull) Though I tend to overcomplicate things. For the insert i was thinking about some small alternating disks like in a kitchen knife sharpener. built into the blade side of the hilt. but not contacting the blade unless you wanted to draw it in and out a few times with pressure against this area.

Metalmaster:
I am actually doing my best to document the process with photos so I can finally make a contribution here. As far as learning how to put the design into leather. Go to your local library and get a video of how it's done. It makes perfect sense the first time you see it and will take you much further than any book i've seen.

[keykeeper]

Candidquality,

There are many sources of info on this on the net. Several years ago, I was studying on sheathmaking for some knives I did. The site is called The Knife Network : Custom Knives, Factory Knives and Knife Information Portal. Go to the workshop area on the left menu, then scroll down that page. It is loaded with scads of tutorials on knifemaking, but I remember several were on sheaths only.

keykeeper

Workshop link....Knife Network : Workshop - Knife Making Tutorials

[mcraigl]

Candidquality, the first sheath I ever made I used a piece of 3/4" pvc for the liner. I basically just heated it up with a torch and then pressed it in a large wood working vise. Not very traditional, maybe not something you want a "nice" forged blade sliding in and out against. I then did exactly as you outlined. It was mostly luck, but once the thing was flattened, I reheated, inserted the blade and then resquished and man did it fit good in there. This was a stock removal blade made from a power hacksaw blade with the bi-metal teeth left on the spine so it really needed a durable liner. The whole getup turned out real nice. Good luck and I'm looking forward to pictures.

[HWooldridge]

I am not much of a leather worker but am lucky that one of my sons knows a saddle maker and he gets lots of high quality scrap. They throw away enough that we can make knife sheaths, holsters and other fairly small items with no material cost.

I wrap the item to be sheathed in a polybag and then wet the leather to mold to shape. Don't know if this is correct but it seems to work. After it's dry, I use contact cement or Gorilla glue to bond the joints, then stitch for insurance and the right "look".

[Graham Fredeen]

I am not sure about traditional waterproofing practices for wood off the top of my head, but what you mentioned could very well work. And, you probably could treat the inside, then just sand off the treatment where the seams are to be glued.

You can use what ever wood you want under the leather really, but some woods hold up better than others, especially if it is a larger scabbard. I quite like oak for use in this manner, and as cores for the leather covered grips on blades. Oak lasts for just about ever, its strong and durable, and it wont break and splinter as easily as other woods since the grain structure is more refined and tends to compress quite a bit before fracturing.

I am not sure about lining the sheath with any abrasives. I have lined a couple of sheaths with a soft felt typed material but thats about all. The problem with the abrasive material is it will ruin the finish, unless the finish is a linear grained, hand sanded with the same grit. I also dont think you would be able to get the abrasives to sharpen the blade in that manner, it would more likely sand away the edge, rounding it over, requiring the edge to be reground constantly. I would rather just pull out the stone every now and then and give it a sharpen.
As a side note on blade sharpening, a thing I have found is that if you sharpen a knife before it is dull then it will stay sharp indefinatly. Meaning that if you lightly use a wet/oil stone on the edge after each use (or every few uses if light cutting is being done) then the edge will be maintained and it will stay as sharp as the day you first made/got it. Where as if you use a knife until it is dull, sometimes the only way to get the edge back (especially if it is a cheap knife) is to regrind the edge completly.

TarAlderion

[Candidquality]

Keykeeper:
Thanks for the links, there are indeed some very informative blueprints there and it does explain which stich to use, so that is a great help.

Mcraigl:
That is indeed a unique application for pvc and if you hadn't told me about it I would have never though of it. I can actually see using this to form a basic sheath and form to shape as desired. It's cheap and easy to get. You can then work it similar to wood and try out several designs with no loss of reall material. I think the vapors from heating are toxic, but everyone here knows anough to have good ventilation. Have to put that one in my to-do bin.

HWooldridge:
I used to work for a company that made hub seals for semi's. And they are made from the highest priced, top grain leather available. After you mentioning a good source I'd thought about making a run the 200 or so miles back to there and seeing if I couldn't borrow a few hundred pounds of scrap from them.
I had thought about Gorilla glue, but with the reversal idea it would have shown up on the outside and I know you can't remove that at all once it's dried. Great stuff and I swear by it for anything that I want to hold together forever. I will probably try it for the first one I make in the normal fashion of the thicker stock.

TarAlderion:
So the best woods to use would probably be Bios-d'-arc(ironwood I think) or possibly teak? I still remember as a kid chopping off some bios-d'-arc wood and using it for a fencepost, having it sprout limbs and leaves the next spring.
As far as the abrasives. the 8000 grit (not 800) is something we use to polish injection mold's for plastics and Iam not even sure it would mark the knife after hardening. It's more of an afterthought. Same as the mini disks for the sharpening. I don't know if you understood the disks, but there purpose is to simply remove any turned edge the same as one of the large bar that's in almost every kitchen. Just an idea I wanted to try from a long time ago. Wold be impracticle on a sheath that would be forever together, but not so much on one that I could dissasemble. Guess i'll tackle that idea another time and quit trying to make it so complicated(as this is usually my downfall)

Thanks for all the great advice. I will try to get some pictures posted here this weekend if I can manage it.

[Graham Fredeen]

That extra 0 makes a difference, I skimmed over it (read abrasive, saw 8 with some 0's, immediatly though of the 800, since 8000 isnt really much abrasive at all;) ). In the case of 8000, you are probably right, that wouldnt do much of anything, if anything to the finish, unless polish it up. And I did get where you were trying to go with the disks (granted the abrasive grit makes a difference now). The only issues I can see with that is getting them to form the exact angle you need for your edge, could pose some difficulty. Afterall, even if it is 8000, you dont want it to fold the edge over, rather than straighten it. But hey if you get a chance to try it out, you might as well, afterall, it probably could work, if set up right, and you could be on to a new big thing in the world of knife sheaths.

Those woods you mentioned are great woods in general, and they look very nice finished up and uncovered. I wont use them under leather because of 2 main reasons, first, they look too good to cover up, and secondly they cost a lot more than your standard oak and oak will do just as well, so I figure I might as well use the oak, more economical. Then if I am selling the knife, I dont have to charge as much for it because I chose the more expensive wood, which cant be seen anyway. For something uncovered, I would definatly use the nicer woods.

Tar Alderion